From Silence To Strength

We trace Pamela Michaux’s journey from Congo to Belgium and from abuse to advocacy, exploring how belief, boundaries, and brave speech convert pain into purpose. Practical tools, raw moments, and a clear path to reclaim voice and set healthy limits.

• promise of a better life, turning to abuse and silence
• running away at 12 and pursuing justice
• redefining forgiveness as acknowledgment and boundaries
• the power of belief and self-love to rebuild identity
• vitamin N as a core healing tool
• breaking generational secrets through voice and writing
• allies who help teachers, social workers, trusted friends
• practical steps to confront fear and own your past
• choosing healthy love and letting go with respect

Pamela’s forthcoming memoir, Mundele Diaries, a memoir, chronicles her journey from zero to eighteen, revealing how truth-telling breaks generational cycles and how purpose grows from the soil of honesty.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And Episode Framing
• 2:07 Pamela’s Origin And Memoir Context
• 6:12 Taken From Mother And Sent To Belgium
• 8:17 Running Away And Seeking Justice At 12
• 13:13 Belief, Resilience, And Identity
• 17:05 Family Dreams, Programming, And Abuse Labels
• 21:30 Recognizing Trauma And Protecting Siblings
• 26:08 Forgiveness Versus Acknowledgment
• 30:55 Orphanage, Social Worker, And Reclaiming Support
• 35:33 Silence, Shame, And Breaking Generational Secrets
• 41:21 Finding Safe Allies And Building A Case
• 46:13 Practical Tools: Owning Your Past
• 50:55 The Power Of Vitamin N: Saying No

Transcript

Cassandra: 0:25

Good day out there to all my listeners, and I'd like to welcome you to Is Your Way in Your Way podcast. And I am your host, and I'm saying this for many of you who are listening may not have even heard of the podcast, or either either, even either myself. And so again, my name is Cassandra Crawley Mayo. I am actually um uh what I would call a transformational lifestyle mentor, and what I do is I guide purpose-driven women to mitigate those self-imposed barriers that's preventing you from living your best life. So, in other words, preventing you from living a life of purpose. So that's actually what I do, and we talk about topics related to self-improvement, uh, personal development, maybe even some business development. My prayer is always that one of these podcasts will enable you to pivot and say, you know what, I am ready to mitigate my barriers that's preventing me from living my life on purpose. So perhaps this one is going to be the one. But let me tell you, our topic today is called From Silence to Strength, Transforming Trauma into Purpose. So just think about this. Can your deepest wounds become your greatest calling? Pamela Michel says yes, from Congo to Belgium, from abuse to betrayal. Her story is raw, real, and redemptive. On today's episode, she reveals how pain can be the very thing that sets you free. She is going to show us how her deepest wounds became her grease calling, childhood trauma, betrayal, racism, discrimination, divorce, abandonment, infertility, chronic illness, and violence. Hey, so get ready. If you're driving, don't, don't, don't, don't start writing notes. Just wait until you get home or either replay this episode so you can hear what Pamela has to say. Let me welcome her right now. Good day, Pam. How are you?

Pamela: 2:54

I'm very good. Hi, Cassandra. Thank you for having me on your show.

Cassandra: 2:58

Oh, it's my pleasure to have you on my show. This is going to be, this is going to be some kind of show because I say you have been through hell and and and back, you know. But before we get started now, I'm going to read a little bit more of your bio just so the listeners get a deeper understanding of what qualifies you to talk about from silence to strength, from transforming trauma and purpose. So Pam is, she told me I could call her Pam. Her name is Pamela, but I'm gonna call her Pam. She is the author of Mandeli Diaries. It's a raw global memoir that transforms silence into strength and pain into purpose. She's born in Congo and she was raised in Belgium during a political upheaval. She endured racism, as I indicated, abuse. She had a heavy responsibility of protecting her siblings as a child, as an adult she-faced betrayal. We know about that. Some of our listeners blended family struggles and racial violence, but chose to reclaim her story rather than be defined by it. So through her writing and her speaking, she empowers others to break generational silence, heal emotional wounds, and find power in their truth. Her upcoming for anyone who has ever felt unseen or unworthy, her release for her book is going to be September the 23rd in honor of her late mother. So this is both a testament to survival and a beacon of hope. Wow. So let me ask you this, Pam. As a young child, you were taken from your mom. What was what why was that? Why why were you taken from your mother? Just one minute. Pamela, she she she is out, but she's gonna come back in in a minute. Um, and I when stuff like this happens, I always say there's something that doesn't want her to share her story because it's I'm certain it's gonna bless someone. So here we go. She's coming back on air, Pamela. Just a minute. Just a minute, yeah.

Pamela: 5:43

Okay, there's I don't know what happened here. That's okay. My apologies for that technology sometimes. Uh I was taking for my mother, promise for a better life into Belgium, that's Europe, and basically I was raised by my father's sister, so my aunt, and I instead of having a better life, I was faced with abuse. Uh, silence was safer than speaking. And one year after my sister and my brother came, because we had the genocide starting between Rwanda, the world low, what later been called the genocide, where neighbors and friends start killing each other while they were before being friends. So, yes, I was sent for better life, but actually I faced things that no child, or not even the person you dislike, should have experienced.

Cassandra: 6:51

And so when you were at about 12, I think it was around 12 years old, did you run away from that?

Pamela: 7:04

Exactly. I ran away and I started actually a court case against my uncle and my aunt. Oh wow, as a as a 12-year-old, as a 12-year-old and Cassandra, I have my son who's 12 years old now, exactly now, and not even in the slightest of my dreams, I would want my son to experience that. And for me, that's part of my journaling and my healing. That I said, whoever is going towards pain or experiencing pain, pain doesn't define your future. As long as you fight and do not give up, you have the power, and you have the possibility to rise above. Everyone has their way of praying to God that it's the universe, it's also a kind of God. Believe without believing, we are no nothing and no one. Because believe, give us light, light give us hope, even in the darkest moment, right?

Cassandra: 8:43

Right. So it sounds like you have to.

Pamela: 8:56

For me, if you don't believe in anything, you believe you don't believe in life. Because that means nothing is holding you to move forward. You need belief to go forward. Sorry about that.

Cassandra: 9:11

Yes. Um, so um, so your childhood challenged challenge shape your resilience and a sense of identity. Uh, when you were growing up and and going through all of this trauma, was there something that you wanted to do with your life? Did you have dreams? And I know one of them was to get away from what you were going through, but was there anything else that you really wanted to do with in life as you were growing up?

Pamela: 9:51

Uh, my biggest dream was having a family. And I believe many of the listeners now will understand when you don't have something, when you hope for something so deep, you sacrifice more than you actually would in normal circumstances, meaning you will accept more things, more pain, more suffer, just because you're holding in something you never had, and for me, that was abandonment, the holding on, and having a family, because family is something that is sacred, but it's only sacred when it's healthy, because some people have families, but it's not healthy in the way the exchanges are, and that's really tricky because we all are imprinted with our education that we want it or not. We are pre-programmed, it's like a computer program. You program the basic, and as children, we've been imprinted with certain beliefs, certain expectations, certain way of seeing and program to see things in a certain way. But is it really truly the right way? And that's the tricky pressure, uh, the tricky questions, because often with experiences we live, we accept and normalize things that are actually not very normal, especially when you come through abuse. Because now at age of 40, I can put a word in, and that's abuse, manipulation, narcissists. Those are words back then I didn't know that they existed, right? Simplify something that is way deeper in imprinted in us.

Cassandra: 11:54

Now, what triggered you to um or what moment in your life did you recognize trauma? Because, like you just said something real poignant to me, you know, when you grow up in these situations like I don't know, uh dysfunction, which many of us grow up that way, you know. I hear people say, oh, they they had a dysfunctional family. But if I dove deep down and who made that comment, all of us somewhat did. But because and you said when you grow up like that, it's kind of like you think it's normal. I mean, you think that's the normal lifestyle, you know, because that's that's what you know, that's what you've seen. So what happened? When did you recognize that that wasn't normal?

Pamela: 13:07

Cassandra, this is something, and I realized it recently. I didn't do it for myself, I did it for my younger siblings. Okay, because my pain, I did not value it as much as I should have. Because I did not want my sister and my brother. My sister is five years younger than me, and my brother is 14 months younger than me. I did not want them to go through what I was being through. Okay, I've been through emotional abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse, yet I'm standing here and putting words, putting words towards what happened to me and saying no. And that started from age of 10. The first time I saw my aunt drowning my sister in a big bowl, a metal bowl of soup. She was eight years old. That was the first time I was eight years. My apology, I was eight years when I saw her first time drowning my sister. The second time I saw it, I was 10 years old. And I went physically towards her. So I stood in between my sister and my aunt because I was older, five years older than my father. I said, I can't let this happen. She's too small. And it's the same with a woman who has children. As long as she's been beaten by her husband, she finds excuses. The moment he touched, he touched the children, she says, I don't want this for my children. And this is the instinct we have inside us. Often we protect not for us, but for people, because we want justice for them. And that's a very tricky and we have to understand, and now I can talk about it. We often protect for others, but actually we are worthy for the protection as well, and we forget that the long way because so many hits have been given to us that we don't think we are worthy, so we become the shining armor, the rescue for the people who are weaker than us, right? And it makes us like a goal, but in the end, it's also helping us.

Cassandra: 15:42

So that security and that protection, that what's interesting, your mom wanted you to go somewhere else for a better life, and not knowing, and I don't know, later on, did she find out or whatever that you were going through what you had gone through in addition to your siblings. So um, so when I think of, and you indicated that your aunt too had children, right? And her was and was and her husband was abusive, is that right? But yet she wanted to drown your sibling in this bowl, you know. Um, let me ask you this out of all of this, and as an adult, have you forgiven them?

Pamela: 16:41

Oh, Cassandra, you're gonna hit. I mean, you hit the the nail exactly. My forgiveness before it's completely different than two months ago, and I'm gonna tell you, it's only two months ago where I realized that what is forgiveness now as me, Pamela, 40 years old, forgiveness only God can give me forgiveness. I do not accept people that hurt me because I do not want to give them an excuse. My childhood would have made me an abuser, yeah. But I choose not to be because I knew the pain that it afflicted to me and hold me prisoner to grow faster into who I became now. So, what is forgiveness really and truly? When we say I forgive you, do we actually 100% do? Do we give them the excuse to have hurt us? Because what is actually forgiveness? I want people to actually look it up for me, true forgiveness, it's acceptance. That's my forgiveness. I accept what you did the moment, but I do not forgive.

Cassandra: 18:15

Okay, so you accept what was done because it's really nothing you can do about it because it was done. I can't change it anymore.

Pamela: 18:26

It's even not accepting, it's not even the right word. I acknowledge what helped me. All right, it's not accepted, so I will retake that. It's not accept. I acknowledge, I understand you being through your traumas, but I will not find excuses and give you forgiveness for that. Okay, should I be beating up my son? No, do I have all the excuses to do it because that's what I was brought with? Yes, but do I want to make a difference? I want to stop that cycle because my aunt's been to abuse, yeah, physical, emotional, sexual. Did she inflict things back to me? Yes, does it make it right? I'm sorry, no, people who hurt you, forgiveness, it's too much of a blessing. Only God can give you that forgiveness.

Cassandra: 19:27

Okay, so from my point of view, right? So you didn't forgive, you just acknowledged that that was done. Okay, hello.

Pamela: 19:37

And I wish them the best, Cassandra. I do wish them the best, but I do not wish them in my life.

Cassandra: 19:44

Hmm, okay, so they're no longer in your line.

Pamela: 19:47

Yeah, no longer in my life since age of 12.

Cassandra: 19:50

Oh, since 12, when you took them, when you took legal act.

Pamela: 19:54

Yes, I took legal act and then I went in an orphanage. So from age of 12, I lived in an orphanage. Age of 16, I lived by myself. I had a social worker who used to come, this woman, and I thank the system for that in a way, because the government, it's luck, call it guidance, call it blessings, out of something very negative. This woman who was a social worker gave me the biggest blessing after my mother. She gave me love that not even the closest family gave to me. And last year I went and looked for her. 2025 was like a very big year for me. I went and looked and I said to her, I want to thank you for what you did because you did more. than your job and she said from all the kids that because we were basically files we were numbers all the kids I never thought you will manage with your story I thought you will never I will never meet you again and here you are in front of me and that is the biggest blessing and she's not doing the job she did before and that's why I say whoever helped you whoever you did wrong to you can still go and say sorry and thank you it's important it doesn't mean the person will accept you in their life but at least you liberate and you go there and it's part of your history and it's important to own your history and own your past to be fully free and live your life now okay so all right so at 16 you went an orphanage and at 12 you in a okay and at 16 you met the social worker I met her at 12 y guided me yes she guided me and at 16 when I lived on my own she was coming every week okay check you get a budget for every week it was at the time 50 euro okay you had to learn you know to be by yourself buy your food budgeting yes right so you also mentioned um how silence and shame keeps trauma alive and it's also the power of breaking it unpack that for us what does that mean well silence keeps you prisoner it's for me an invisible prison okay often when you silence right you're actually giving light to the people who harm you and with silence comes shame because they make you believe what happened to you you are fault you are the one who should be ashamed of it so you're protecting them by keeping silence and in all family we keep many things silence secrets secret yeah secrets and silence is like identical twins they go hand in hand because you protect the truth for coming out right so you don't protect the truth you're hiding the truth and keep the lies as the truth because when you don't talk we have a gift to be able to talk we have a gift to smell we have a gift to look we have a gift by talking to communicate and when you communicate even in abuse within the family you give light to what is right or wrong when you communicate so if you keep silence you showing that abuse is right so you are as responsible as the abuser so stop this generational silence and covering up what should not be covering that yeah so that that's good because we we we all have have secrets um in some sort of way or some people say they're in the closet you know stuff like that how did you how did you know who to share or to open up or use your voice in reference to what happened to you because we have listeners now that are silenced they're shamed because of things that have happened to them who do you how did you know who to talk to was it a therapist what what what um who did you open up to who did you tell your story to and felt safe the first time it was a teacher when I was 10 years old when I ran away the first time okay I was completely beaten up by two adults my aunt and my uncle they used to use sticks that the bullies you know during um rails you know they they they hit with and I was completely bruised and I used to be very good in basketball so I couldn't do competition because in basketball you know competition you do in shorts yeah and my body was fully bruised and the teacher said Pam why are you not going I say I can't and he could feel and he said you can trust me and he was also a coach not only a teacher in school he was also coach okay and I told him I can't because my my legs are blue and he wanted to signal I say but the police sent me already back because my aunt was really well connected right and he actually helped me to build a case against my uncle and my aunt and I started to study them my uncle and my aunt the behavior and in every abuse situation you are in that is your partner, your family members or sometimes it's even kids who are parents or parents who are kids it's not only a one-way stream it's very and there is manipulation there is like the guilt feeling they're giving you where you feel like I am the wrong person and that is what is very tricky with good people we always question ourselves I am not a saint but I know now and I can tell for sure I am a good person. I know my values and whoever listened to your podcast Cassandra know who you are stop listening to the gaslighting they send to you and tell you you are something that you are not because they want to keep you in that little cage to be able to fold you mold you and create something that you are not or making you believe find that inner voice deep in you you know something is not right you know something is not correct because we all have core value the base as you build the house the house is you have the shell form the shelf form is you windows are people doors are people you are the structure know what is your structure because the structure anything else can fly away with a storm but the shell form that is you will be there make sure your shelf is imprinted and strong enough to hold on that that reminds me of uh you know it says guard your heart because that's where the issues of life is uh so let's talk to my listeners and let's be more specific about some um practical ways to overcome and and and then and I'll I'll say this sometimes you know it's interesting because I too have been through things and you know it's just like the podcast is is your way in your way and and yeah it was and that's what prevented me from doing a whole lot of things because I was in my way but I'm still in my way sometimes you know and I'm saying that to say based on all that you've gone through you you our kudos you've overcome a lot but have you overcome it all and what are some practical ways to overcome those personal obstacles that you've been through for me it's owning your past Cassandra you have to own where you come from okay and meaning don't be ashamed for certain things you did before you didn't they made you who you are now and people are ready for them to listen to this podcast mean there is something in them that want to evolve we human we are there to evolve if you even learn from the most stupid person that's my belief there is nothing really stupid even before you is stupid you learn how not to do certain things and how to overcome it's honesty be true to yourself be honest to yourself don't make things look more beautiful than they are are you in a bad situation do you deal with any addiction do you have fear do you have anxiety do you have panic attacks listen you're not the only one going through this many other people going through the exact same thing and they exactly think the same as you that they are alone it's not I've been through addiction I've been through anxiety I've been through a panic attack phobias all this came with a certain point where life wasn't as gentle but you know what is the point of living the heartbeat is the most beautiful example a heartbeat goes like this up and down up and down when it goes flat means you're dead right don't expect life to be completely fair with you it wasn't a promised land except that you will have up and downs if it's flat everything oh it's amazing it's amazing all the time you as good as that you reinvent yourself by growing to things experiencing things having humanity exchanges that it's hard or good but it's an exchange and you have to have a way how to take the best out of it and only you can do that. And that's why I say the vitamin N is the most powerful vitamin I ever used in my life you can't buy it you have to produce it you all know the vitamin D coming from the sun the vitamin D oranges so the vitamin N is the power to say no okay so you said vitamin N as a Nancy what does N no what does n mean vitamin N it's the power say no no okay okay okay vitamin N is no no okay and powerful so why is that powerful because you what you're saying is it's okay to say no it is crucial to say no okay by saying no to others you say yes to yourself okay how many times you accepted to do anything for your close ones that actually you weren't 100% with it okay you were tired exhausted and still you said yes to them so by saying no to them you say yes to you okay don't give more than you can give okay all right that okay that vitamin is in you okay that's right that's right um so let let me talk about because the title is from silence to strength and and and you were silent but then you realized you know you got to speak up how did you okay so transforming trauma into purpose Pam what are you doing now what what is your purpose my purpose is to power people woman and man okay as I am a very strong person and I wasn't born strong actually as a child I was very shy I was smiling and hiding behind the smile even if you see the cover of my book I mean we all learn to wear mask but the danger with mask is we don't know when we have to remove it. So we are not truly true to ourselves so silence was thought was safer than speaking because you would hurt certain people you will you know make a taboo in the family it starts from your childhood and from your inner circle because the pain people inflict to you it's because the love you have for the people if you don't care about the person they can tell you whatever they want you will not care. But if it's someone in your first circle it hurts you like no they rip something from you and and it's the same with grief it's the importance the person has in your life that will inflict the pain. So when you remove that power you accept people that come and go it's like food eggs you keep for a certain amount milk you keep for a certain meat you keep for a certain amount vegetables fruit and then there is honey honey apparently is forever people are the same except people come and go and once you have that acceptance you know life becomes easier and more beautiful because your love is not depending and your life is not depending on them and actually it's a healthy way more healthy love it's the same when you have children you don't want them to stay forever with you you want them to have their own life and you let them go why would you not want that for your partners or for other people around you why do you want to possess them as a goods that's not healthy right so you using your scars and your hurt your pain and using your story as a source of transformation that's what it sounds like yeah it's 100% Cassandra right 100 I have all the excuses to be an addict or to cry my eye's life but you know what what was inflicted on me as a child I had no choice but as an adult it's my responsibility and it's my duty to rise above and not only for me it's also as a mother you show to your kids whatever is your past you are the driver of your car and your car or your house whatever you want to call it is you as long as you want to fight I am healthy I thank God for that I am healthy and I do not give up the day I give up is the day I'm in the ground and whoever who listen if it feels like is the end most of my ends were the most biggest blessings and beginning in my life because that's where I had to renew myself and reinvent myself and become who I am now was I born like this no right did I choose to become who I am now 100% right and I had no mother no father no support from age of seven at age of 12 I took my guardians my uncle and my aunt and my father to court I wasn't raised with my mother I had no love I used to hug myself until now of age of 40 when things come overwhelming I say this it's gonna be okay you can do this okay you can do this and anyone who has small children in this age these years please think about this a frustrated child is a happy adult that means the more your child receives no's as a child when it received no's as an adult it already was confronted to that and they will find ways to overcome that if you give your children everything because you had nothing it's wrong you're doing a different kind of disasters to them my son whatever I can give him I will but I want him to have respect because respect is not an option we are no one nothing without a respect respect to our elderly respect to our others this is humanity we have to be hand in hand right when you are on your dying bed or you have a loved one sick and they need blood or organs whoever who has any racist thoughts or dislike towards anyone else you will never ask where the heart came from the origin or the religion or the heart or the blood came from you will take it so please humanity remind yourself this right right um i have listeners now that have um gone through some of the things that you've gone through and maybe I have listeners that have been through all that you've gone through and they're looking at you and they're listening to you and saying wow I wish I had her resiliency.

Cassandra: 40:36

I wish I had the tenacity I was tenacious like so tell us again Where are you getting your strength from? Tell the listeners, where is that coming from? From God. Okay.

Pamela: 40:56

I believe. And I think my mother from zero till seven, she gave me the belief. If you don't believe in anything, I'm sorry. What are you holding on to if you don't believe?

Cassandra: 41:11

Okay.

Pamela: 41:13

So whatever you believe, whatever your religion, or that is you do that is God, the universe, that you're Christian, the Muslim, whoever your religion is, believe. Without belief, where do you even start? You can say, I believe in myself, but who are you?

Cassandra: 41:37

Okay.

Pamela: 41:38

And to the people who don't know where to start, love yourself. For years I didn't love myself. I was my drive came from my anger. I was driven by my anger because I wanted to prove my word.

Cassandra: 41:57

Okay.

Pamela: 41:58

It helped me for a while, but it also kept me prisoner for a while.

Cassandra: 42:01

Yes. Right.

Pamela: 42:03

So I had to release that anger, and that's because when my mother died, I was upset with God. I say, why did you take her away from me? Didn't I give you so much? Why do you want more for me? But that wasn't the case. I had my sister and my brother, even though I didn't do it for myself, they were my blessing.

Cassandra: 42:31

So that book you are uh that's getting ready to come out. Um the Mandel, Mandela, yes, Mundeli.

Pamela: 42:43

It's in Gala. It's in Mundala.

Cassandra: 42:46

Note it's for your mom. That's about your mom.

Pamela: 42:49

It's actually about my childhood from zero till 18. Yes.

Cassandra: 42:54

Okay. All right.

Pamela: 42:55

And um, the cover, it's actually half is my face, and half is a mask with the flags. I saw that, yeah. Yeah, it's very powerful. And mundele and diaries, mundele means white, because back in Africa, my mother was black and my father white. In Africa, I was a white child, and then when I came to Europe, I was the black child. Imagine for a seven-year-old, it's very confusing. Sure, yes, so I didn't even belong in my own family, and that's the beauty of life. You do not need to belong, you have to know who you are, and anything else that comes as positive is a bonus. Anything that comes as hard, you can see it as a lesson. Do not let it knock you down, don't keep things like a hamster in a circle where it stays in your head. Write it down, talk about it, let it go. But please do not just talk or just write, make steps. You didn't learn to walk in one go, you learned to scroll, stand, and then walk. So don't expect things. Oh, I'm writing, it should heal me. No, there is a work behind it. Face your demon, they become less fear when you face them. It's when you give them that pedestal up there. Oh, I'm afraid. You know what? They get massive because you don't want to look at them. But when you look at them and say, I'm afraid of you, but I'm standing here. Every time you go and confront them, they take less space into you, and that's where you allow you to come you again. So find who you are. Don't listen to the noise. I compare it, you have donkeys in life. It makes a lot of noise. Then you have beautiful race horse. They look alike from far, but they are not alike. One runs, leave dust behind, one scream and stay on the same place. Ask yourself, who are you? Are you the donkey making noise and keep repeating what is happening or staying in the same spot? Or are you going forward, leaving the dust behind, the past behind? Right, moving forward to what is your plan and what you want to fulfill? You and only you can do that.

Cassandra: 45:41

Wow. So, yep. So the call to action is transformation, is a decision. It's a decision, 100%, Cassandra. Okay, so how can my listeners get in touch with you? How can they connect with you?

Pamela: 45:56

Mundele Diaries is my Instagram, and uh they can get in contact with me there. I am very uh responsive to people, and uh soon I will make WhatsApp group, and hopefully, even towards your um podcast.

Cassandra: 46:12

Sure.

Pamela: 46:13

I mean, I love talking to you because for you to be able to create this kind of conversation, it's also because of your own experience, and we are more connected than we actually know, right? But you have to be open for it and look around you. The grocery shop when you do grocery shopping, the person who is in the supermarket has often more similar stories than you think with you. We hide our pains through different masks because we are not exactly the same, and yet we are the same. Right, right, and that's what humanity, if we get together, forget the politics, the religions, and everything. We are breeding, we are born naked, we die. I mean, we born with nothing, okay. Some with a good family on paper. What is a good family? That's another discussion we can have. But in the end of the day, what is the point to be the richest man of the symmetry? I prefer to be the most happy person, right?

Cassandra: 47:24

And lose your soul, right?

Pamela: 47:28

Exactly. Yeah, you don't have to harm people to be successful.

Cassandra: 47:33

That's right. We all need each other, too, though. We need each other, yeah. Let me spell the the book for my listeners is M as in Mary, U as an umbrella, N as in no, D as in Diary, E as in Eddie, L as in love, and E as in love. So that's one way that you can find you Mundeli Diaries.

Pamela: 48:01

And Diaries is a journal, huh? Cassandra, because it's a journal, live is a journal. And to your listeners, when you write, it's a kind of therapy you do, because when you keep pain into your head or difficulty, what happened with it? You keep focused on it, so you're attracting more pain. They say the power of manifesting, whatever you want to call it, but it's a fact, and it's also with negative people. Imagine you meet with people who always say, I have this problem, and I have this problem, and then in heaven, you go to another group and you say, Wow, life is beautiful. Look, the sun, how nice it lifts you up. Test it tomorrow. You go out of your house, you tell a person, wow, you look beautiful today. The person will smile. You already gave a blessing to someone, right? It didn't cost you anything, just for you to be open to give, and the person will say, Oh, but you look beautiful. Thank you. And their smile made you smile, right? It costs nothing. So please start in within your psychic circle, and bit by bit, it's like a snowball. You give posity, and positivity will give you back.

Cassandra: 49:27

Wow, that's great, Pam. I you know, we could talk all day, but we can't. Yes, and I just I want to thank you for being my guest today. I am certain that many of my listeners are ruminating on a lot you've said, they're admiring you uh because you were open, you told your story, you took your mask off. You're like, I'm just gonna tell it, you know. And from that, I call that authenticity. You were very transparent, and I thank you. And like I always tell my listeners that for those who saw the value, heard something you know that would bless somebody that you know, please share this podcast with them. And like I always say, Pam, to my listeners, I say bye for now. God bless you. And Pam, I'm gonna say to you, bye for now, and may God continue to bless you. Thank you so much. Amen. Yes, thank you.