Embracing Life's Final Chapter: Dying, Death, and Spiritual Awareness

What if you could embrace life’s final transition with peace and clarity? Join me, Cassandra Crawley-Mayo, as I sit down with the gentle yet profound Gretchen Jones, an intuitive guide and compassionate death doula. Together, we unravel the complexities of dying, death, and spiritual awareness, offering insight into how death doulas work alongside hospice professionals to provide holistic end-of-life care. Gretchen's journey into this sacred work is deeply personal, inspired by spiritual experiences from her childhood and the impactful loss of her father, which she candidly shares to help demystify the dying process.

Our conversation sheds light on the spiritual aspects of end-of-life care, exploring concepts like shared death experiences and the often-unspoken visions and dreams that accompany this profound transition. We discuss how these insights provide guidance, comfort, and a deeper understanding of life transitions, not only for those at the end of life but also for those they leave behind. Gretchen's stories, particularly about patients like Sister Bernadette, illustrate the delicate balance of respecting faith and guiding individuals through their unique spiritual journeys.

As we explore the common regrets faced by those nearing the end of their lives, this episode serves as a poignant reminder of the importance of finding purpose and peace. Gretchen emphasizes the vital role of hospice professionals and death doulas in fostering family closure, ensuring that no one dies alone, and helping families navigate potential conflicts. This episode is a touching testament to the power of compassion and presence, urging listeners to reflect on how they can support loved ones during life’s final chapter.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Navigating Life Transitions With Gretchen Jones
• 10:04 Childhood Spiritual Experiences and Death Doulas
• 17:37 Journey of Souls in Transition
• 30:58 Navigating Patient Faith in End-of-Life
• 36:26 Sharing Spiritual Visions and Dreams
• 41:34 Finding Purpose and Peace in Transition
• 54:39 Fostering Family Closure in Transition

Transcript

Cassandra: 0:25

Hello to all of my listeners and I'd like to welcome you to Is your Way In your Way podcast, and I am your host, cassandra Crawley-Mayo, and for those new listeners out there, let me kind of share with you what this podcast is all about. It's actually about individuals who are stuck, and when I say stuck, you know that there's certain things in your heart or in your belly that you want to do, but you just can't do it. And you know how we dwell on what's our purpose and we're so focused on trying to figure it out that we never get to it. Or you want to start a new business, or you want to be a doula, or you'd like to be promoted, or you may like to move somewhere, you may want to relocate, so there are a number of things. So this is a podcast that will enable you to have some self-reflection on the things we talk about and even some personal development and some business development things that we're going to also talk about.

Cassandra: 1:25

And today let me share what the topic is. It's about dying, death and spiritual awareness, and I have a special guest on by the name of Helen Gretchen Jones that you're going to meet in a few minutes, and in my book for most of you who've read the book, I do have a chapter in there and, as you know, a chapter are love letters written to women and this chapter is about dear women who have lost a loved one. So we're going to go a little beyond that and Helen is going to just share some insight that she has in reference to the dying, the death and spiritual awareness. Okay, well, hello, I see you have Gretchen on the screen and I have Helen Gretchen Jones, so do we call? Do I call you Gretchen?

Gretchen: 2:19

You can call me Gretchen, or there's just a lot of Helens in my family. Helen is my first name, but we're all named Helen, it seems.

Cassandra: 2:24

Oh, really, how interesting, how interesting. Well, I'd like to welcome you to Is your Way In your Way podcast. It's a pleasure to have you as one of my guests.

Gretchen: 2:33

Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here.

Cassandra: 2:36

Yeah, I'm going to read your bio for my listeners, just so they can get a little background on you before we delve into our topic. Gretchen is a compassionate death doula, intuitive guide and channeler, dedicated to fostering spiritual consciousness and deeper connections. Through her work with the 18 and spirit, she helps others trust their personal experiences and embrace messages from beyond. She has a dual master's degree in arts, history and theology, along with certifications and sound bowl therapy. Is it Reiki? Reiki, reiki and hypnosis? She offers a unique blend of knowledge and intuition.

Cassandra: 3:32

When she's not guiding hospice patients or teaching spiritual seminars, helen enjoys life on her Texas ranch with her family and their beloved animals. She's also a number one bestseller for healing whispers from spirit guides. So well, from that. First of all, I'm going to ask her now. Many of you now. For me, there are quite a few doulas, but I always hear doula in reference to somebody who's pregnant. You know even a doula after the baby is born, and so many of you probably have not heard of a death doula. So before we get started, gretchen, what is a death doula?

Gretchen: 4:24

Can you hear me? I can it froze for a minute, but you're back, okay, great. What's a death doula? So a death doula, like a birth doula doula literally means to help or guide or assist, and a death doula is someone who is helping those who are actively dying or maybe been diagnosed with a terminal illness to start the process of transitioning. So death doulas work with both patients and with families to guide them through the process of dying.

Cassandra: 4:55

Okay, when a person's in hospice, is it any different than the work that you?

Gretchen: 5:02

do so. I work with hospice patients and other different families privately as well, but hospice is an amazing resource and tool in our communities. It is an opportunity for families to receive medical care, pain relief medications. In that sense, volunteers, nurses coming in help with basic needs of a patient as they progress along their journey, including bathing and different things like that. I've had patients in hospice care for as long as five years and that is one of my sticking points. It's that people are so afraid to get on hospice because they feel like it's the end, it's the final goodbye in some ways. But really it's a valuable resource for all of our communities and a lot of people don't recognize sometimes that hospice is also charitable. So even if you don't have insurance, you can get on hospice and be supplied with the necessary medications and resources available medications and resources available.

Cassandra: 6:14

Wow, when you say charitable, what does that mean? Because a lot of people you know like, if I'm not mistaken, like Medicare, I don't believe pays for hospice. It's a lot of things that they don't have the resources to get their family members on hospice, knowing that probably that's the next best step, that's probably what a doctor would share with their family. So when you say resource, what type of resources would they have?

Gretchen: 6:37

So, for example, if someone they're a nonprofit most of the time and if they don't, if you don't have insurance or you have limited funds for hospice, you can qualify to still get hospice and everything. You get everything with it. So you have doctors come to home visits right, so they'll come out and visit you, usually weekly, but that could vary based on the needs of the patient. Nurses are several times a week, volunteers, that's on whatever. Sometimes volunteers can come and sit with the patient so they're not lonely. Perhaps their loved one has to go to work or needs to run to the grocery store or take a shower. Being a caregiver is very taxing, so hospice allows a little bit of relief in that sense for caregivers.

Cassandra: 7:25

Okay, so when there's an individual that would need those resources, they just go to a charitable organization cancer or what type of organization, Catholic or refer you to hospice and it's their.

Gretchen: 7:51

Their standards for referring to hospice are really simple. It's if they believe that they are, it's if they would not be surprised if you were to die in the next six months. If a doctor says I wouldn't be surprised if you died in the next six months and it could be you could. Like I said earlier, I've had a patient on there for five years. It's it's very, very lenient, but it's very, very helpful.

Cassandra: 8:11

That's great information. Thanks for sharing that. Now, what I'd like to know is before you got your education, your degree in history and theology, tell us a little bit about your backstory. What was going on as you were growing up? Backstory what was going on when you as you were growing up?

Gretchen: 8:30

So when I was growing up, my family was my grandmother was a seven-day Adventist, my father was an atheist, later agnostic, my we were raised Presbyterian, so we had all these different faiths coming in. I had friends who were Hindu and Muslim and as I moved through college and I just had so many, I don't know I just felt like someone had to be right, someone had to have the answers. So when I started studying art history, I was looking for answers and all the different types of types of art, iconography and and you know, all the way back to cave paintings. I'm like where are the answers? And when I got degrees in theology, I was comparing different world religions, trying to figure out what was right. And what I discovered along the way, because I had had spiritual experiences even as a kid, was what I could really trust for my own beautiful was what I could really trust for my own beautiful, very loving. I believe in a God, in something that is all encompassing all that is.

Gretchen: 9:40

And that's what I feel when I have these spiritual experiences and I don't know, I felt like religion as a religion offers some really amazing structures and community for a lot of people who really, really need that. But as a whole, I think that I'm more geared towards spiritual experiences as something that drives me more than a specific structured religion.

Cassandra: 10:04

Okay, Now talk about some of those spiritual experiences. What are those? What do they look like?

Gretchen: 10:12

So are you referring to in my childhood, or when I'm sitting bedside with patients?

Cassandra: 10:18

In your childhood, as you were growing up, because something led you to this, which you're currently doing, and we'll get to that. But what was going on? Experiences when you were a child?

Gretchen: 10:30

So we had me and my sister Gwen. We were we're a year apart, so we're very close in age, and my family was a little bit, I don't know. My mom got married a lot and we were, we were. We went to go live with my grandmother, off and on a lot. I say we probably lived with her as much as we lived with our mom, and so there was a little bit of I didn't. I didn't have that control or that structure that I yearned for as a kid, and so when I felt overwhelmed or I don't know, a little like I wasn't unsure about myself or my surroundings, I would go sit in a bathtub where I knew no one would bother me, just an empty bathtub, and I would just focus on the silence. And sometimes during that time I would have a spiritual experience that would make me feel that everything was going to be okay, that everything was okay, that I had nothing to fear, and so that that experience and those voices or those beings of light helped me along my journey.

Cassandra: 11:42

Ever since then, as long as I can remember, While you were having, so this is not the only spiritual experience you had as a child, um, but as you were having, these did you share it with anyone what you were going through, what your experiences were.

Gretchen: 12:00

I did and I, when I shared it with my dad, he said I believe you believe that's what you saw. You know he was. It was disappointing to hear that, but these experiences were so transformative that it did not make me question the wisdom of the information coming through. It made me question the wisdom of my parents If they didn't understand what was happening or what was going on. Perhaps they didn't know as much as I thought, maybe they should, as my parents as a little kid.

Cassandra: 12:27

When.

Gretchen: 12:28

I told my grandmother she was scared. It was something very fearful for her. She thought it could be, in her words, like the work of the devil sort of thing, because she came from a very fear-based upbringing around being able to connect on a spiritual level. So I kind of find that ironic, because I think in many Christian religions being able to connect to God is something that everyone strives for, so being able to connect to angels or whatever. So these were beings of light and they never had anything. Everything that ever emanated from them was beautiful and warm and loving and it was always positive. But I think it was still a scary concept for my grandmother.

Cassandra: 13:18

Yeah, so when you you had these experiences, you believe it. Did you believe it was God given to you or an angel or light, Like, did something, say something to you? Was it something done that transformed you and you just came way out, Just you know, got out of yourself, no longer stuck in this thing?

Gretchen: 13:45

Yes. So no one ever came to me and said I am God or I am an angel or I am of the light. They were all of those things. I'll tell you what it felt like. It felt like home. It felt like a remembering. It felt like, oh yeah, of course this is right. It just felt exactly right where I was supposed to be. Everything felt okay. I wasn't fearful in any way. It felt like an old friend or a loved one, a companion, someone who has always been there for me, would love me, no matter what. That. I felt this deep love for them and it was really more of a. It felt bigger than me, sort of like a collective, and I associate God with everything. You know. God is in me, god is in every animal, every plant, every being. So that's sort of what it feels like, okay.

Cassandra: 14:46

You went to. You had a certain education, you indicated because you were very curious. You know and put stuff together. I think curiosity is wonderful. I actually see that as being very wise. When an individual is curious, let's go into. Okay, what made you? Okay, let me ask you this, why? Let me ask you your why. Why, what's your why behind being a death doula?

Gretchen: 15:42

So my father transitioned in 2015 and he was only in his fifties, so that's pretty young.

Gretchen: 15:50

And he passed away of cirrhosis of the liver. Okay, so his my passing was unexpected for many members in my family. It was not for me. I'd had a vision five months before that that he was going to be transitioning and so I understood when it happened that it wasn't something unexpected. But my sister Victoria I have another sister, victoria she had not had closure with my father when he transitioned and there was a lot of grief and anger and upset around that.

Gretchen: 16:24

And it was heartbreaking, heartbreaking. I can't even tell you the amount of closure that was not able to happen with my family and my dad, and when that happened, I thought, gosh, if I could change anything with anyone else, it'd be a way to alleviate not having closure, not recognizing what's important at end of life, not taking the opportunity to be vulnerable and say what needs to be said. And so when I heard about becoming I heard the certification for a death doula and what they do I thought this is my chance. This is my chance to work with families and patients so that they have closure at end of life and we don't have to have a repeat of what happened with my family and my father.

Cassandra: 17:06

OK, ok, interesting. So you talked about, was it an NDE, like near death experiences? So experience is shared, shared death.

Gretchen: 17:18

Yes, ok, ok. Shared death experience. Is it shared? Shared death yes.

Cassandra: 17:21

Okay, so it's not near death, it's shared, correct, okay, okay. Well, I won't ask itself a question.

Gretchen: 17:30

Well, I find that shared death experiences have some similarities with NDEs. Actually, oh do they In what?

Gretchen: 17:36

way.

Gretchen: 17:37

So whenever, at the end of life, whenever someone is about to take their final breath it's been my experience so far because I'm able to see spirits standing outside of their bodies I'm able to see these people standing outside of their bodies before that final breath is taken, and the reason this is important is because it means we don't have to suffer.

Gretchen: 18:02

So many people are afraid to go to sleep whenever they're in the process of dying. They're afraid they're not going to wake back up or they're afraid, with every breath they take, it might be their last one. There's going to be a shift and it's going to get harder and harder, and they worry about that last breath being a stressful breath that could imply suffering. But what I'm discovering is that people are actually standing outside of their body. Their body is going through the natural process of shutting down and returning to the earth, but the soul of that person is safely observing. This is supported through NDE experiencers when they say oh, I was, you know they were doing CPR on me. They were, you know, had all the monitors hooked up and I was at the ceiling on the house in the hospital because you don't be in your body for that moment of suffering.

Gretchen: 18:48

The only difference between my patients and the people who are NDEers is mine continue to their welcome home party and to the other side, whereas NDEers return back to their body once the hard part is over the suffering and the cracking of the ribs and the CPR and all of that stuff.

Cassandra: 19:06

So that even happens, like if someone was tragically killed right In an accident, you know, just boom, either on an airplane, you know. So they will then still see their what do you call it? An outer body, or would they still see themselves?

Gretchen: 19:30

I believe that they shift their focus. So we are spirits and we are always spirit and we are utilizing a human earthly body as a vehicle in which to have experiences that have a beginning and an end. In our earthly world we have time and we use it, and we need it because it allows us to exit our experience. We don't want to be here in human bodies for eternity. No, we are souls. That would be so boring. We are souls who want to have a beginning and an end to our physical experience, so there's no need for us to experience suffering. As we shift our focus out of our bodies, we can let the body go, and we do, quite naturally, even if an airplane's going down, we pop out of our pop out right before collision.

Cassandra: 20:20

Yeah, yeah, because I have heard individuals say, you know, as someone is transitioning, they can see them. I've heard that see their bodies moving. And I also had another guest who did had a near death experience and she talked about how she saw herself. She saw people working on her body, you know, and that was unbelievable. Because, well, let me ask you this why do you think people shun from even talking about this, about death? They don't even want to talk about it, you know? Why do you think that is?

Gretchen: 21:00

Now I've given this a lot of thought and actually, if I were to just be real practical about it, I think it happens back during during wartime. Specifically, I believe it was the Civil War, where embalming started, that's where trying to get soldiers back home across state lines and different areas, so that we started utilizing embalming and putting them so that their bodies would stay longer before they can make it back home. Once we started having removing death from the home and from the family, it becomes something that's distant from us. So someone gets sick, we put them in the hospital, we put them in a nursing home they're away from our private home. Some stay in the home, and that's great if they can and then after that we send them off to be embalmed or cremated or and then someone else takes care of the aftercare of the body after that dies. And then someone else embalms them, someone else puts them in the ground. I mean there's, it's someone else always doing the work to care for our, our, our dying and our and our dead.

Gretchen: 22:09

So, with so far removed. Generations and generations go by and we start to have um. Death becomes something a little bit uncomfortable for us, Something that's unknown, something that's done by other people, not us. That's when I think it shifted, just from a practical standpoint, when we stopped personally caring for our dying and dead.

Cassandra: 22:33

It's like nope, we don't have control because we don't understand it or we don't. I've had people say I don't want to talk about it and they're adamant about it. I don't care what you do with my stuff, they just you know, I've heard people say that and even though and when I was sharing about the chapter in my book I kind of talked about what individuals wishes, it's just, it's just weird how, how they don't plan but they plan for a baby or they plan for a marriage or wedding, but why not plan for something so sacred but, as you indicated, that sounds about, I would kind of say that practically why we shun from it. Share with us your most transformative experiences with the patient. Do you have any? I bet you do. I have a.

Gretchen: 23:26

I have a lot and I've had several that are very, very transformative. I am not sure which one to share. One of my favorite ones to share is Mrs Wilma. Of course, I have changed their names to protect their privacy. Mrs Wilma was a patient of NODA, changed their names to protect their privacy.

Gretchen: 23:43

Mrs Wilma was a patient of NODA, and NODA stands for no One Dies Alone. It's a hospital-based program in many cities across our country. What NODA is and I'm going to talk a little bit really quick NODA is a volunteer organization. When someone starts to actively die, which means the last 72 hours, they send out an email blast to all of their note of volunteers and you sign up. Yeah, oh, it's fantastic. You sign up for three hour shifts and you go and you sit with these patients.

Gretchen: 24:13

Um, and these are people who are dying alone, people who maybe never had children, maybe a family can't afford to fly in where they're at, maybe they were kind of jerks and burned all those bridges and no one wants to be there for a number of reasons. People are dying alone. Yeah, yeah, wow, yeah. So Mrs Wilma was a Noda patient and I signed up for her shift and when I go in to sit with my patients. I like to do a little bit of a prayer or a meditation. I set my intention before going in and then I do it again when I see my patient. I'll sit with her. Mrs Milma was elderly, she was, I believe, in her nineties, she was black and she was um. She did have family. They just couldn't afford to come in and she was um very, very peaceful and I sat there and I played um hymns.

Gretchen: 25:13

I knew she was Baptist, so I played on my phone and as I sat down to sort of like hold her hand and pray with her, a young version of her walked in the room. At first I thought it was a real person, because it can feel so real sometimes. But she presented herself as around the age of 10 or 12 years old and she also was in black and white and that's a symbol for me. When I see spirit in black and white, this puts them in the years of 1920s to 1969 respectively, and I think that's because my husband's a photographer and those were the years of black and white photography. So I think it's just my own symbol. So she appears, she was dressed in her Sunday best and her hair was twisted in these cute little pigtails and she walks over and takes my other hand. So my left hand is holding Mrs Wilma's right hand in the hospital room and she comes and takes my left hand and as she does, the hospital transforms into like this forest, like a forest.

Gretchen: 26:22

I am aware that I'm still in the hospital holding physical Mr Mrs Wilma's hand and I'm also aware of being in a forest with young Mrs Wilma and, without saying words, she's talking. She's not using her mouth, it's just information coming in and she says do you see this one tree? She was showing me this tree Like do you see this one tree? This one tree is growing in this forest and every root coming off of this tree believes it's an individual root, it's its own life. Every little root that's branching off of this other bigger root believes it's its own individual life. Every branch coming off this tree believes it's its own life. Every single leaf believes it's its own life. But it isn't. It's all connected.

Gretchen: 27:13

All of it is serving the greater whole of this tree.

Gretchen: 27:16

And when you look at this tree it's all part of this forest. It believes it's its own tree, and yet it's not. It's part of this forest. It believes it's its own tree, and yet it's not. It's part of this larger forest. You pull back even further it's part of this larger ecosystem. We're all connected. We are all one, and that was what she was teaching, and she was teaching the importance of connection and self-awareness through connection. Yeah, but I also had this overwhelming sense, when she was holding my hand, of segregation, right. So she experienced segregation as a child, which is separation, and then she had separation from her family throughout her life, and then here she was, dying alone. So what was almost this overarching theme of separation? The true beauty behind it was a lesson of connection and being unified, and so that was one of the profound experiences that I had with Mrs Wilma.

Cassandra: 28:09

Wow, when you were telling that story and you talked about how you knew what her religion was. She was Baptist and it made me remember a quote in the Bible that says I'm the vine and you're the branch and and and. You can't do anything if you're not stay connected with me. Also, it's like you know. Then there's fruit on on the branches as well. And when you talk about the connection part I thought about in the Bible, it talks about how God says we're all one. You know, if you're a believer, we're all connected. So I just find that interesting, because we all have different perspectives. But if I didn't know what you shared about her faith, then that probably would not have even come up. But yet it's still all about connection, you know, which to me maybe was a lesson learned for you. I don't know, but I just saw it in the biblical standpoint of what she was, the words you said she shared your perspective, not that she shared with you, but what you got out of that story.

Gretchen: 29:18

My interpretation of what she was sharing. Yeah, exactly.

Cassandra: 29:21

Exactly Now. You said before you go into a patient, you set your intention. What are your intentions different from each one, or are they basically the same?

Gretchen: 29:33

Basically the same before I go in. It is that I serve them for their highest and greatest good, and I've now changed that to that I be of service for the highest and greatest good of all involved, not just for them, right? So it should be everything connected. So that's what I do. And then when I see my patient, I just kind of sit down and pray and I, I just I just send so much love um to them and then intuitively, I sort of let my prayers guide me after I'm sitting with my patient.

Cassandra: 30:11

Interesting. Um, does your so? The the ones that you said? Um, no one dies alone, but the individuals that have family that come and be with them and you're there. Have you ever had any hesitancy or reluctancy from those families? Because I see you have similarities for a hospice person, nurse or whatever, but you definitely have different ways of doing things. You have what I call a gift. What about the families of those individuals? Are they resisting you? What have some of those experiences been like for them and for you?

Gretchen: 30:58

So I'm not medically trained, so I can't administer medication. So that's where I differ from a nurse. Okay, nurses now are required to do so much more paperwork than they had to do before, and so they're not able to spend as much one-on-one time with the patients as they used to be able to do, which I imagine is their favorite part. Yes, yeah.

Gretchen: 31:30

So that's, I think, where the position sort of evolved. Um, when I am working with hospice or if I am hired as a private death doula for a family, it depends on who hires me. So sometimes I'm hired by the patient and sometimes I'm hired by the family. So if the family hires me, it's the patient that they felt that they couldn't get through to, and that can be a little more challenging.

Cassandra: 31:57

Okay, uh-huh Okay.

Gretchen: 32:00

But it's very important to recognize that when you go in and sit with a family or a patient or both, that you know what their faith is.

Gretchen: 32:10

And that's one of the things that has been very, very helpful with my degree in theology is having a very deep appreciation and understanding of different world religions and understanding of different world religions.

Gretchen: 32:26

So when at end of life, when patients are having visions or seeing deceased loved ones or having these beautiful spiritual experiences, sometimes it can seem contradictory to their faith and it's very important to be able to understand what the faith is and help help navigate that within the confines of the faith, perspectives of the faith, so that your whole reason that you're there is to bring peace and to bring closure for family and the patient. So, for example, I had, um, one of my patients was a Catholic nun, uh, sister Bernadette, and she was lovely. She was a nurse her whole life and worked in a hospital and here she was dying now in the hospital, and so she had a very supportive community. Everyone loves sister Bernadette and when we uh one time she came in and she goes close the door I have a confession to make and I thought, do I need to go get a priest. It was kind of, you know, spicy.

Gretchen: 33:20

She was sometimes and she says, no, I want you to tell, I want to tell you that my friend, my sister, mary Catherine, has been visiting me and I was like, oh, that's great, you know. And she goes no, you don't understand, she's already gone to our Lord, our Lord father. So I was just like, oh, and she's been not only visiting, but she's been chatting with her, and she was very adamant that communing with the dead went against her Catholic faith. And so, in an attempt to sort of guide that process a little bit, I said, no, you talk to mother Mary, you talk to Jesus, you talk to God, you know, you, you talk to dead all the time and she goes no, I pray to them, I don't commune with them. So, in her mind, she wasn't having an active conversation with them. She was expressing gratitude towards them and asking them for some things and never having an active conversation. And I think that's where she drew the line with her faith. Of course, everything's perspective, we can shift it Absolutely, and so I think what we ended up doing was we talked about how, perhaps, like when Archangel Gabriel visited Mother Mary and told her she was going to have Jesus, that that was a vision that she had and I said perhaps Sister Mary Catherine is a messenger of God as a vision for you and perhaps we can approach it that way. She's like, oh okay, I need time to kind of think about that a little bit. But it helped her be able then to interact with that vision of Sister Mary Catherine and be able to take on the beautiful loving messages as they prepared for their trip. Sister Mary Catherine was telling able to take on the beautiful loving messages as they prepared for their trip. Sister Mary Catherine was telling her they were going to be taking a trip.

Gretchen: 35:08

So so if you understand someone's faith, and you understand how to shift a perspective that includes the loving, beautiful spiritual experiences that are happening. Well then, that definitely offers closure.

Cassandra: 35:24

That's beautiful, that's that, and you're right, a lot does have to do with the religion that they are, you know, and that's their belief and that's what they're going to go with, and I think it's awesome of you to study those religions so you can, too, understand. And obviously, it's no judgment. You're not there to judge. You're there to love them and provide them with comfort as they transition. Now, do you believe individuals may have visions, but they're not transitioning? Have you ever heard that before?

Gretchen: 36:05

I have visions and I'm not transitioning.

Cassandra: 36:07

Exactly, exactly. Are your visions similar, or are they just at random, or do they come often? Tell me about those visions. I'm interested because I've had one, just one.

Gretchen: 36:26

And I was like what was your vision?

Cassandra: 36:28

Well, my vision was I was at work and when I went in my office and everything in my office was turned around the desk, the chairs, the plant was over here. My desk was spotless, my drawers were spotless, and throughout the day I was angry because I thought somebody came in my office and changed it around without telling me and this went off for the entire day. So when I had my employees come to me, I would look at them strange and they're like is anything wrong with you? I'm like no. And then I asked somebody. I said did you come in and change my desk? They were looking at me like no, and I was like well, what is?

Cassandra: 37:13

And it bothered me all day long and I was blaming my employees. I'm like I know you use like everything was in order, everything OK, and not that I had a. Maybe my office was in disarray, but it wasn't like I had it before. And then at the end of the day my office came back to how it was and I was like what in the world was that? And I asked my minister yes, people have visions. And you know he said well, yeah, he said tell me about it. And then, you know, he kind of shared with me, because there was a lot of chaos in the hotel with employees. You know they would argue with each other, they would oh, it was just crazy. And he said what's going to happen is things are going to get back in order where you work, and it and it did. People start leaving, new people started coming in. So that was my only vision I had.

Cassandra: 38:13

Then I'm like I want to have another one, but I've not ever had another one so far.

Gretchen: 38:18

Well, that was a spontaneous vision then.

Cassandra: 38:24

It's. Yes, it was.

Gretchen: 38:24

It was so what type of visions do you have.

Gretchen: 38:26

I've had spontaneous visions, but I have now I have a more developed practice. So when I sit down to pray or meditate, I do that regularly and I receive. I'm very, very visual and I receive visions every time, every time. I do that now, as I receive, I'm very, very visual and I receive visions every time, every time. I do that now as part of my practice, and so I utilize that village, that vision, to help guide my, the challenges in my life or the challenges other people are experiencing and of course there are. There's, like you were saying, there's no judgment, there's it's just where a person is on their path. So if I receive information, I don't have to tell that person necessarily. Like, for example, when I saw that my dad was going to die, I didn't go tell my dad, I saw that you're going to die.

Gretchen: 39:16

Yeah, you know that, that, what you know, what I think is happening around that, because I will frequently now, because I'm working with people who are dying so often, I will frequently get visions around a ballpark of when someone's going to die five months, you know, four weeks, something like that. And it is they've never just said. You know October 7th at you know 9am.

Gretchen: 39:38

No one's ever it's not like that. It's definitely a ballpark, but I think the reason that that is happening and this has been what I'm journaling and trying to get my head around is I don't get to be privy to someone's death as if it's written in stone. I believe that once I receive a ballpark that someone's going to transition, it's because, on a soul level, that when I receive a ballpark that someone's going to transition, it's because on a soul level, that has been decided, and then I'm able to pick up on that information like a wave of information around me. It isn't like I can stop it.

Gretchen: 40:12

I don't think it's meant to be stopped and I also think that it's something that you know is something that I have to go tell someone right away. It's because on a soul level that's already been decided for them, maybe by them, maybe by God, maybe by both, maybe they are God, it doesn't matter. And then I think that's when I become aware of it, so that I can work with them and the family to navigate peace and closure in those final moments. It doesn't have to be about guess what I just figured out. You're gonna be dying in October.

Cassandra: 40:40

guess what I just figured out, you're going to be dying in October, exactly, exactly. That's interesting, and I didn't consider those as visions. But I have dreams and I haven't had them lately, like I usually do. But I would dream if somebody was going to pass, or I would dream if somebody was going to get a promotion, but I never would tell that person. And I don't know if I didn't tell him because maybe that wasn't going to happen or I just felt that that was something that I should keep to myself and I would tell my mom. You know, my mom said oh, I believe you were born with a veil over your face. I don't know if you ever heard that.

Cassandra: 41:11

Like yeah, she said, I think you were born with a veil over your face. I'm like really, wow, you know. So I didn't, I wasn't afraid, but it was just unusual, you know. And then I would have my mom say did you dream anything about me the other night.

Cassandra: 41:27

I said I don't think it works like that. I don't think it works like that, but I didn't consider those. I just say those were my dreams that I had. You know I can, I can interpret some dreams. Sometimes that's somewhat of a gift of mine, so that's interesting.

Gretchen: 41:40

I think that's beautiful. I would love to get more dreams. I mean, that is fantastic Really, yeah.

Cassandra: 41:48

Yeah, and when I have them, I I I never finish them, and I think that's why I remember them, because I'm right in the middle of them. But if I finish them, then I don't remember them. But if I'm right in the middle and I wake up, I'm like, oh my gosh, yeah, cause I had one the other day which was kind of weird, and I have a dream book and that helps me interpret the dream. So I keep saying I'm going to, I'm going to look in that book, but I don't know what it's going to say. I don't know if I want to know that or not. So, yeah, that's really interesting how we were created and wired. That's what I'll say. That's what I'll say.

Cassandra: 42:23

Another question and I know you talk to your patients there's a hospice nurse by the name of Bonnie Ware. I don't know if you've ever heard of her, but what she did was she was interested in individuals' regrets as they were transitioning. So she interviewed them, she got permission and it was amazing the regrets people had, you know, and and three of them. I'm like, okay, I can get it. I work too hard, I don't spend enough time with family, I wish I would travel, but there were two regrets that really stuck with me and I think I know that's what got me on my mission is I wish I were happier, they would say, and I wish I was more true to myself. And that's what they would say. And I was like that's so weird. Why weren't they happier, why couldn't they be more true to themselves? So the patients that you've spoken with, have they ever talked about their lives, like what's happened in their lives or any?

Gretchen: 43:20

regrets or anything. Yes, and I think that that's important. I haven't heard the happier one as much, because all of them are unhappy, but that's not where they're focused, because most of them are not just thrilled that they're dying, right, okay, but I have heard the true to themselves.

Gretchen: 43:39

It's one of the biggest ones I get, and here's why, okay, and my thought is I'm the people who I'm talking to who are expressing that are elderly, they're in their eighties and their nineties. That was a different time. That was a time when it really mattered about what your reputation was, what other people thought of you, what the community thought of you. That's getting less and less. Now People don't care as much. They'll say and do anything online these days community standards and that there were, you know, you don't? You don't?

Gretchen: 44:21

you know you couldn't be out with a boy too late or it might look bad you know, and you couldn't dance too close, and you know, I mean, there were just all these social rules that really mattered. So people shifted their lives and lived their lives based around what they thought other people were going to think, what they feared other people might think, and it was a very judgmental time in my thought. So when I'm helping people who are of that age transition, they start to recognize now how many of their decisions were based around their thoughts of what other people might think versus what they really wanted to do.

Cassandra: 45:01

Interesting. Have you been with anyone younger and and experienced their thoughts, what they were thinking, that weren't at that age.

Gretchen: 45:12

My youngest patient was, um, almost was in their late twenties, early thirties, being vague Um and um, that person, um. And then I had another patient who was in her uh, forties and they were um. I'm going to talk about the woman in her forties. The woman in her forties, um, she was an alcoholic and so she still very much felt not at all like she lived her life for someone else, but she did feel like things were done. She was very much sort of victimized throughout her life is sort of her perspective.

Gretchen: 45:55

And so, even in death, this was being done to her and there seemed to be a lot less. There appears to be a lot less ownership or responsibility based on actions and some of my younger patients they feel more like look what life has done to me, instead of a victim. Yeah, so I mean, that's just. I mean I have, luckily I have more experience with people who are elderly than I do with my younger patients, but that is something that I've noticed interesting.

Cassandra: 46:31

Um gretchen, uh, you know, people are really, uh, and I I was like this too as I was growing up and wondered what my purpose was. You know, and there is a lady by the name of, I think her name is Garci, she's one hundred and three years old. She has been, oh, she's been, on the Internet. You know, people are interviewing her and she's a doctor and she was talking about, of course, she has a lot of wisdom because of her age, and she was saying that one of the there were five reasons or something. You know that that makes people happy, and she talked about having a meaning in life, like they have to know their purpose, because you're not here just to be here, you're here for a reason, and then you're going to go on, and I believe that because right now, even though your purpose can change over time, but I'm pretty clear right now what mine is, do you know what yours is? Is it what you're?

Gretchen: 47:33

doing you think so? I believe that we all have. We're all multi-purposed. I think that we're here for many reasons. I believe one of my purposes is to serve. It's what brings me fulfillment, and so having that fulfillment obviously means I'm content and happy. It doesn't mean I don't continue to set goals and strive for new and different things, of course, but right now, serving the dying community is right where I'm supposed to be, and that will probably change. I haven't always served the dying community, but I do feel serving is something that definitely brings me fulfillment. You know, I asked my husband the same question. I was like, what brings you fulfillment? And he said he said providing for my family, and so I always thought of that as being a really big responsibility.

Cassandra: 48:22

Yes.

Gretchen: 48:23

Yeah, for him it's. It's it brings him fulfillment to achieve something like that. So it's funny, the different things that really resonate with people as what brings them fulfillment and contentment and a sense of pride in themselves and what they do. So yeah, for me it would be definitely serving right now. That's where I'm at. Years ago it was being a mom, but my kids are growing up. I have one in college and I have one who's 13, but should babysit my 19 year old, probably. She's the young. She's my daughter, she's the 13. My son's the 19 year old and you know she'll, she'll take care of him.

Gretchen: 49:04

the 19 year old and you know she'll take care of him but um, but they just don't need me like um they used to, so that that purpose is now kind of moved on some.

Cassandra: 49:08

yeah, yeah, interesting. Yeah, that's what I try to tell my listeners and my and my clients that the purpose can change, you know, yeah, so whatever you're doing then could you know if you're a caregiver, that could be your purpose at that time? Absolutely. Now the title is Dying, death and Spiritual Awareness, and you also said that is how important it is for telling your story finding peace through dying process and grief. So what's the importance of why you think the importance of telling your story and finding peace through the dying, processing, grief?

Gretchen: 49:44

Okay, so I I believe it's very important to tell our stories. Um, so, when we tell our stories and we share, we form a connection to someone as they listen. When we listen to someone tell their story, we start to find relation. Oh, that's relatable. I can understand that. I understand that. I see now why they made that choice and we offer them grace. And the more we offer people grace and the more we and we do it through storytelling. That's what's so great about being human.

Gretchen: 50:14

Um the more we start to realize that we're all more alike than we give each other credit for. Sometimes, and when you know someone's story and they make a choice you wouldn't have, you let it slide a little bit, that's where that grace comes in. You're like, okay, you know, I know, they know better, I'm sure they're, you know whatever it is that you want to tell yourself.

Gretchen: 50:34

But when we do that and we start offering grace to everyone around us and a level of understanding and awareness to everyone around us, that's peace and that ripples out into the world, and then the next person does it, and the next person does it, and it all starts with being brave enough to be vulnerable, to share our stories.

Cassandra: 50:52

That's beautiful. And my book that's my Story, you know is your way and your way, and just the reviews and people I talk to, like you said, we're more alike than we're different, you know, and they could really relate. And I think it took me so long to write my story because I was in my way, you know, I didn't want people to know my stuff, you know, like, oh my gosh, they're going to judge me. And then I just felt this, knowing, like you, yours is a different, but it's like you got to write this book and I'm not going to leave you alone until you do. And so I did. One more question for you. This is great, since you're a catalyst for transformation. I like for you to leave my audience inspired and forever change. It's like you know, bring, bring your transformation message to my listeners, but like, like, like I said on here, with a profound, transformed perspective on life, death and the connection that binds us all. And you may have just said it.

Gretchen: 51:54

Yes, well, I do believe that finding that connection to every person around you is what allows us to to share love and to share a unified feeling with everybody across the globe, actually, and there's so many ways that we can do that, and it starts with, for some of us, being vulnerable enough to share our stories, like you did and like all of your listeners who come on here and share their stories. I mean all of your listeners who come on here and share their stories. I mean all of your people who and for for people to also recognize that everyone makes mistakes, everyone has challenges in their lives, and we're not alone in that, and that's part of the great part about being human is we get to have these challenges. That's one of the reasons I believe, that we came here to have this experience. Otherwise, you know, the challenges are supposed to be the fun part when they're over. It's all about how we work through that journey.

Gretchen: 52:52

So I think that we're all here doing the same thing. We all chose to come here, all at the same time. We're all here trying to experience something fantastic, and we get to be here. You get to be here, and it is short. This is a short time on this planet. I'm already halfway through, so I'm like what else do I want to help other people be able to do? What do I want to leave behind? So yeah, finding peace within yourself right now will help you find peace with others.

Cassandra: 53:23

Wow. That's why I say I'm in my fourth quarter now. So what's going on? I'm in the fourth quarter of my life. How, let me ask you, how, can people find a death doula? You can just Google it, you can, ok, all right, ok, how can individuals get in touch with you if they'd like to?

Gretchen: 53:45

Sure, I have a website. It's wwwHelenGretchenJonescom, and my book is available on Amazon and on BarnesandNoblecom. It's available in Kindle, audiobook and paperback. I love audio books myself. I like to read while I'm running errands, so I do too.

Cassandra: 54:06

Yeah, yeah. And your book is titled healing whispers from spirit guides. Yes, wow, that's, that's a lot.

Gretchen: 54:15

There's a lot in there. There are meditation practices, there are the book is chapters that have my favorite chapters with patients, spiritual experiences and beautiful journeys towards death that my patients have had, and a preceding chapter about the lessons I've learned and wisdom I've gained from working with the dying community.

Cassandra: 54:39

Wow, gretchen, this was great I could talk to you longer. I mean, you've given a lot of insight, different perspectives that I think are something to think about, and I liked how you posed the hospice nurse versus the doula and your role in this and how you have been a blessing in many people's lives, that you have worked with um and the families as well, and hopefully by doing this, the families can get closure. Yes, yeah, because, as I shared with you before we came on, I still know families that don't even speak to each other because the family member passed away, so I don't get that.

Gretchen: 55:28

But it happens a lot, that's right. And it would be amazing if there would be a third party to come in and sort of navigate those waters a little bit.

Cassandra: 55:36

Yeah, that would Wow. Well, thank you so much. It was, like I said, a pleasure and my listeners I know. If you know of somebody that this would resonate with and I know you do I ask you to please, please, share it and also it's going to be on all social media platforms and to share with my listeners. Actually, this is the longest podcast I've ever had, so that is great. I'm just so into it, it was just so interesting for me and I appreciate you, Gretchen, and my listeners. Again, bye for now. God bless you and Gretchen. Bye for now.