Grief Coaching and the Power of Self-Compassion

After losing my mother, I found myself navigating the tumultuous journey of grief, especially during the holiday season. This experience led me to connect with Ebony Gibson, a compassionate grief coach and founder of Can I Grieve, who shares her wisdom and personal healing journey in this heartfelt conversation. We delve into the deeply individual nature of grief, the importance of setting personal boundaries, and how to create new traditions that prioritize self-care during a time that can be particularly challenging for those experiencing loss.

Grief and guilt often walk hand in hand, but how do we manage these overwhelming emotions? Ebony and I explore practical ways to address guilt, likening it to the bargaining stage of grief, and suggest reflective activities like writing letters to oneself or a lost loved one. We emphasize the importance of presence over words when supporting someone who is grieving and how sharing stories and memories can provide comfort. The holiday season can amplify feelings of loss, but we discuss how to move forward by letting go of certain burdens and embracing the support of those around us.

Virtual coaching offers a lifeline for many, and Ebony highlights its benefits, from flexibility to accessibility, allowing her to reach clients across the country. We underscore the value of self-compassion and the power of seeking help, especially when the holidays aren't as joyful as they once were. Through individual or group coaching, Ebony creates safe spaces for processing grief, encouraging the creation of meaningful new traditions to honor loved ones. As we wrap up, we extend a heartfelt message reminding listeners that it’s okay to grieve, to lean on support systems, and to remember that healing doesn’t follow a set timeline.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Navigating Grief During the Holidays
• 14:43 Overcoming Guilt and Offering Support
• 20:41 Navigating Grief Through Support and Memories
• 26:53 Navigating Grief and Providing Support
• 35:06 Expanding Virtual Coaching Reach

Transcript

Cassandra: 0:25

Good day out there to all of my listeners. I'd like to wish you a happy holiday, merry Christmas, happy New Year. This is the holiday season and I just wanna greet you all with that and I would like to welcome those new listeners to Is your Way In your Way podcast, and I'm your host and my name is Cassandra Crawley Mayo, and the title of my podcast is the same title as my book Is your Way In your Way. It's actually a self-discovery guide for women on how to restore yourself, learn from your experiences and be your true self again. We talk about topics related to personal improvement, personal development, business improvement and also it's going to enable you to do some self reflection and also these individuals that are stuck.

Cassandra: 1:20

You know, there's certain things you want to do in your life and you've not been able to do it. You maybe you want to write a book, maybe you need to get out of a toxic relationship, perhaps you want to move, you want to be promoted. It's just a number of things that your soul is calling you to do and you've not been able to do it. And today I want to talk about how the holidays may play an integral role in that behavior. Today I want to talk about how to navigate grief during the holidays, and that in itself can keep you stuck. That has a whole gamut of emotions with that and I just felt compelled to talk about that this holiday season and my special, my special guest that's going to talk about that with us name is Ebony Gibson. Hi, ebony, how are you?

Ebony: 2:14

Hi, I'm well, how are you?

Cassandra: 2:17

I'm doing great and I just want to thank you. Thank you for being a guest on my podcast today. Ebony, you know, during the holidays can be so challenging challenging time for those grieving and I. Before I get started, we get started on our interview, I want to just give a little background on you so that my guests will just have a little history about you to see what qualifies you to be a grieving coach.

Cassandra: 2:52

Okay, ebony is dedicated to grief, dedicated to grief coach, and she's the founder of Can I Grieve. It's a company providing compassionate support and resources for those navigating loss, and resources for those navigating loss. Inspired by her own healing journey. After Ebony's mother unexpected passing in 2017, she became a beacon of hope for others, creating safe spaces to process grief. She's actually a sought o Out speaker. She empowers audiences at women's empowerment events and grief forums with her heartfelt insights. She's on a mission and her mission is to help individuals embrace healing with courage, compassion and resilience. So, ebony, for someone who is experiencing profound loss during the holidays, what would you say to help them feel seen and understood?

Ebony: 4:05

Yes. So first, the thing that people have to understand about grief is that it's a very individual journey and experience. You know you could experience the same type of loss, but the whole experience is totally different. It makes it even more complicated when we talk about the holidays, right, because that's a time where your person, whoever you may have lost is no longer here and it's more obvious than usual, right?

Ebony: 4:41

Because they won't be at the Thanksgiving like we just had dinner. They won't be at the Christmas party or brunch or whatever you know your family tradition is, and so I think it's important for people who are grieving and maybe people who aren't grieving to just be kind to others, because we never know what the next person is going through and especially during this holiday season, but, more importantly, to be kind to yourself as well. If you are grieving. I think it's really important during the holidays to set boundaries. You know this is a time where there are a lot of Friendsgiving and Christmas parties, holiday parties with the jobs, and sometimes you know it can be overwhelming, right? Just thinking about going to these different type of events can bring on anxiety and overwhelming feelings. However, I think it's important to put boundaries in place. So it's okay to attend these events. It's awesome to not attend these events.

Ebony: 5:40

You know, it's okay to leave early. You know it's okay to host Christmas if you want to. Or, like I've been saying for the last couple of weeks, there's Uber Eats. Now you know, we're in a new generation, we're in a different time. You don't have to Bless you. You can order Uber Eats, you can go out to eat. There's so many different things that we can do. So I just think during the holiday season, you have to prioritize self-care, which is putting yourself first, which is putting boundaries in place and which is being okay with creating something different. It's okay to go outside of the norm. I don't want to keep going.

Cassandra: 6:20

Yeah, that's okay, let's talk about boundaries, because we hear a lot about boundaries. How would somebody, how would you talk with somebody that well needs to understand what boundaries mean? You know, they're in this, they're in this space where they're just grieving and they just don't know what boundaries may work for them. How could you navigate them to try to figure out what's best for them? You know, because you have people that say, oh, it's okay, it's kind of like, you know, people don't know what to say. You know. So what are some boundaries you would suggest or can suggest for individuals that are going through grieving during the holidays?

Ebony: 7:08

Absolutely. When I think about boundaries, I think about protection, like protecting yourself, and at the end of the day, this is a challenging time. Grief is challenging in itself, but, like I say you add, the holidays bless you add the holidays, and it's even more challenging.

Ebony: 7:23

And so I think, when it comes to boundaries just doing whatever feels good to you and turning away from whatever doesn't you know a lot of times we're expected, especially as women, to be the strong person, the strong side, and unfortunately that's just not a title that we need to accept. Especially during the holidays and during grief. It's okay to be vulnerable, but at the same time, it makes sense to put these boundaries in place so that you can protect yourself and so that you can help other people help you. One of the biggest things that I think you know people need to do and I always encourage my clients to do is to advocate for yourself during grief. There are people that want to support you, people that want to help you, and maybe they're doing it offensively, without knowing, and so the best thing you can do, as someone that's going through grief, is tell people how to show up for you. And again, this goes back to the protection right.

Ebony: 8:16

If it's going to be overwhelming for you and you go to an event, you let them know hey, I may come, but I might leave early, or hey, this is too much for me to handle, I'm not going to come. That, again, is putting putting boundaries in place because, again, what did I say?

Cassandra: 8:32

Boundaries means to me protection. Ebony, this is such a sensitive matter and I am curious and I know my listeners are why did you decide to?

Ebony: 8:53

be a coach for those who are grieving? That's a good question. I always get asked that question and, honestly, I just truly believe the experiences that we have in life. They don't happen to us for no reason. I believe that everything happens for a reason, and for some people that may be a hard pill to swallow, but I believe my mother's passing was not supposed to go in vain, and I believe even the other losses that I've experienced death-related and non-death-related they're supposed to be shared, and I believe that God allowed me to come out on the other side and so I felt a responsibility to help other people do the same. I know in the Black community, you know, therapy is frowned upon or grief counseling is just now becoming, you know, normal for people to get out and therapy and different things like that.

Cassandra: 9:44

And so.

Ebony: 9:45

I just felt during a pandemic, when grief was at an all time high. I was supposed to launch my company. You know, and God has guided me you know over the last three years on which direction to go. But I just truly believe, like I said, that things that happen to us in life they're supposed to be shared and because I was able to come out on the other side, I feel obligated to help other people. You know, when my mom passed away, I was 22 at the time. I'm 30 now.

Ebony: 10:12

A lot of my parents didn't experience losing a parent at that age, and I just always felt like whenever they would lose a parent, I got to be the first one to give them some advice. I got to say something. And so another thing that inspired me was just understanding everybody doesn't always have a support system for me.

Cassandra: 10:32

I did.

Ebony: 10:32

That is another reason why I'm out on that side, and so I just believe I exist to be a light and okay, okay, okay, good, that's, that's good.

Cassandra: 10:43

Um, so you took that opportunity and your perspective was changed. Yeah, so what are some things you did to? I don't, I don't think we ever overcome, but you're the coach. I'm not sure that there's not a day that I don't think about my parents. I think about them every day. It's just amazing to me, particularly during this time of year, and I always say, well, you know, christmas is not the same, thanksgiving is not the same, and I'll confess, the first year after they passed, when the holidays were coming, I was miserable, you know. And so what are some things that you did or learned during the grieving period? Or is there this? You know, like you said, everybody's different. Some people are it hit them real hard and some people may like, yeah, then then then they some of the hit hard because they have guilt, right, could be right, what? What are some other things that that individuals can do to Kind of not suppress it, but to feel better or get through it? I'll say to get through it?

Ebony: 12:13

Absolutely Well. As I stated before, you know, grief is an individual experience and so people have to do whatever works for them. For me per se, I leaned in on my support system. I had a lot of support from friends and family. I literally couldn't count on one hand how many dinners and plans people were making for me and cooking for me, and I was open to it.

Ebony: 12:38

Sometimes people rather be isolated, and again that's totally up to that person, but I leaned in on my friends and family for support. I had people stay with me. I would say maybe in year number four or five, I can't remember what year it was I attended Grief Share through my church, which is a program that a lot of churches offer and it's a faith-based support group, if you will, but for grief and so different churches faith-based support group, if you will before grief and so different churches, like I said, offer that program, and that really helped me get a better understanding about grief and from a biblical standpoint, and so I think it's really important you know that people do seek support, whether they feel like they're handling it.

Ebony: 13:22

You know the right way or the wrong way, because it's really been helpful. And I know, like I said, in our community it's not normal, you know, to see a grief counselor or to talk to someone a therapist. It's just becoming a thing and I feel like back in 2017, when my mother passed away, it wasn't normal. And not only was it not normal, I just wasn't comfortable, and that was just my own misconception.

Ebony: 13:48

Knowing what I know now, I would have been one, you know to talk to somebody, but it was just my own perception because I didn't know any better, and so I say all that to say lean in on your support system if you have one.

Cassandra: 14:02

Okay.

Ebony: 14:03

There are a bunch of organizations and support groups that you can join, you know. There are a bunch of organizations and support groups that you can join. You know where you can be, in the vicinity with people who have experienced what you lost. That way you find some type of support and comfort, knowing you're not crazy, knowing you're not the only person that has been through this.

Ebony: 14:21

So leaning in to your support system if you don't have one, like I said, there are organizations, there are people that want to support you because they've been through what you've been through, um seeking support, whether it's through church, like I said, through grief share, whether it's through a counselor or therapist um has been helpful okay yeah yeah, how?

Cassandra: 14:43

what about individuals that have this guilt? How do you I would say coach, or how do you? What do you tell people that are so you know that they're just guilty? They're guilty. Maybe I didn't see my parent enough, or my son or I didn't do this, my parent enough, or my son or I didn't do this. I should have said I'm sorry to my dad and I didn't. And how do you deal with?

Ebony: 15:19

how should individuals deal with what you suggest, the guilt part of the passing? Yeah, so guilt is a very common emotion that people feel when going through grief, for different reasons. Like you just stated, it also reminds me of the bargaining stage, so there are five different stages of grief. One of those stages is called the bargaining stage, where you kind of go back and forth with if only I had done this, you know, or I should have done this, and so, with that being said, you asked I'm trying to remember the question because I went left a little bit how do people, how do people deal with the guilt or how can people overcome the guilt?

Cassandra: 15:56

I want to say, yeah, how, how do they overcome the guilt? And they may not ever overcome. But they feel better about it right you know, because guilt can be such it's's gripping it could, it could. It's a cancer.

Ebony: 16:09

Yeah. So I typically have my clients write a letter to their self, to their loved one, to whatever the thing is that they feel guilty about, because oftentimes it's in our head, it's not reality, and so sometimes, when you write out on paper why you feel guilty or what you're feeling guilty for, you realize that you actually did do all that you could do, you know, and so it helps take some of that pressure off you. I had a client who her husband had passed away and she felt like she should have done more health wise. But once she wrote out how she was at every doctor's appointment, how she picked up his prescriptions, how she slept at the hospital, then she was able to remove that guilt, because again grief we get in our heads, and so sometimes the guilt that we're carrying is not even our guilt to carry.

Cassandra: 17:01

Wow, wow, um what? Because it's nearing the end of the year, right, and you know people do a lot of reflection. You know, the end of the year, uh, the first of the year, um, what do you think? What's the most powerful thing someone grieving can do for themselves at the end of the year, entering a new year with hope?

Ebony: 17:52

Oh, that's a good one. I think that people should figure out what do they need to let go of? So that they can move forward. There's a lot of things that people don't realize that they should grieve over, because they feel like it's not a death, so it's not important. And that's one of the biggest misconceptions that people have when it comes to grief is only death, and even your job will tell you, if it's not immediate family.

Ebony: 18:26

We don't understand that. Friendship breakups, relationship breakups, job loss, health diagnosis all of these different things that people experience are valid experiences that people need to work through in order to move forward. And so I think, as you talk about going into the new year, what are those things that we need to let go of? Is it procrastination? Is it whoination? Is it who I thought I would be? I'm 30. I thought I would be a homeowner by now. I'm not. Does that mean that that's the end of the world? No, that could be social media telling me that I'm supposed to have all these things and be all of these things. So what is it that I need to let go of in order so that I can flourish and become the person that I'm supposed to be becoming?

Cassandra: 19:11

flourish and become the person that I'm supposed to be becoming. That's very good. I'm glad you mentioned that, because a lot of people think grieving is the loss of a loved one, and it's the loss of a whole lot of things, absolutely yeah.

Cassandra: 19:23

Oh, absolutely, Absolutely so. It's not just the loss of a loved one. So I'm so glad that you brought that up Now when, when you know a lot of people struggle with when somebody passes a friend of theirs, somebody close to a friend, what do they say? What have you found that individuals should should say to a person who's lost someone?

Ebony: 19:50

That's a great question. You know, a lot of people struggle with that and that's why some people stay away, right, Because it's like I don't know what to say and I know, especially speaking for women.

Ebony: 20:00

You know we're nurturers and we want to fix things and unfortunately, grief is something that you know. It can't be fixed, and so when we talk about what to say, there's a bunch of different things that you can say. You know, and sometimes it's not even about what you say, it's just being there. You know, sometimes somebody might want you to just come and just say it may not be anything that you can say, but the fact that you just showed up and just sit with them could make all the difference.

Ebony: 20:28

So I think people should get out of their head and and stop focusing on what's the right thing to say, and just show up.

Ebony: 20:37

And you know, even if it's not what's the right thing to say. I always tell people, offer suggestions. You know, when you're going through grief, like I said, your brain is all over the place. You can't even think, you know, you don't even know what today is. And so when someone asks you, hey, can I stop by, you know, and just sit with you. Or hey, I want to order you dinner, or even they cook for you, or even they come over and do your laundry for you dinner, or even they cook for you, or even they come over and do your laundry for you. They watch the kids, so you can take a break. I think it's really about offering suggestions versus what do I say?

Ebony: 21:09

Because at the end of the day, there's truly nothing that you can say that will make that person feel better. But if you listen without judgment, I think that's helpful, and if you're offering to do things like making sure they're eating their laundry, they have time to their self, you watch the kids and I think that makes more of a difference than that.

Cassandra: 21:32

Yeah, I do. Yeah, yeah, that's good. I remember it was actually a cousin of mine and it's probably the I wouldn't say the first time somebody close to me had passed, but because we were related, I said something that I'll never forget and she looked at me like something's wrong. Why would you ask that? And my question was what can I do for you? And she looked at me like I don't know and I and I'm like, oh no, I did something wrong, so.

Cassandra: 22:04

So when I left her, I talked to my mom about it and she was like they don't know. That's not really good to ask all the time with some people, you just need to just be careful. Because that was her first experience losing a parent and I said what can I do for you? I don't know. You know, and I'm thinking I'm helping because, ok, whatever you want me to do, whatever you want me to do, she literally didn't know.

Cassandra: 22:32

And I and I learned from that that you know, just, either being there, like you indicated, there was something I read the other day that it's for some people it's okay when someone passes to talk about them, say something funny they did or what they remembered, um, because a lot of times people say I'm not gonna say anything about them. You know, I'm not gonna say a word about that, because that may be, um, uh, that may be too sensitive, that's too close, what close? What do you think about that? Like, when you go with someone's house, you know, like people, like you know, I remember, like when my mom passed and people would say funny stories about her, things that she did for them or with them or whatever, and it did make me laugh, you know, but some people may that may not be comfortable doing that. What do you think about that one?

Ebony: 23:24

I think it's interesting, right, because, as I'll keep reiterating, grief is such an individual experience. So there are people that are waiting, literally holding their breath, waiting for moments to talk about their loved one, for someone to say something about it, and then there are other people that prefer not to talk about it. It may be too much for them, or just a constant reminder, but then you have people, like I said, that they want, they want to talk about it themselves. They don't, they're not even waiting for you to bring it up. They're waiting to bring it up, you know, at the right time.

Ebony: 23:58

And so I think, just being mindful of maybe who that person is, or maybe even asking a question, you know, I wanted to share a special memory, you know, about your loved one. Is it okay if I do so? Or something funny, you know, you know what I mean Just kind of like asking because you don't know how that person is going to respond. They may get upset or they may start busting out laughing, you know what's that, so yeah, I think just being mindful and maybe asking before doing so.

Cassandra: 24:28

Yeah, okay, I'm in a ministry at my church and the ministry is called the Epistle Ministry, where we write letters and you know. So every week we'll get a list of names. They'll put your name correspond with this person and somebody that perhaps lost a loved one, someone's sick, or someone, a child, a parent. It's a number of things that we write to, and I remember when I first got in the ministry, I struggled with that because I didn't know them and I was like this is weird. You know, I don't know these people, so what do I say? And, as you indicated, everybody grieves differently, and so I just prayed about it and I thought about well, what would I want someone to say to me? They don't even know me and to find out that a lot of people would. We would write the letters, they would write a letter back and thank us, you know, for the encouragement, for somebody thinking about them, even people they didn't know, and how much they appreciated that. And that was just very touching because I, like I said, I did it from my heart and I was hopeful. You know that something was said, you know, and sometimes I'll wait until the person has passed like maybe a month, and then I write the letter, you know, but thinking about you by this time, you know, I hope you're feeling a little better about your loved one, or someone has said something that reminded you of them and made you laugh, or something like that made you laugh, or something like that, and then they will write and appreciate that.

Cassandra: 26:05

Because when, when all the I always say when, when the you know, when it happens for me, it was so surreal, you know, and I was like, oh my gosh, this is, you know, and I even remember, with my parents, I wailed, I literally wailed, and I don't know if anybody's ever heard of that, but it says that in the Bible and I always wonder, well, what is that? I literally just wailed and wailed and wailed and I was like, oh my gosh, what was that about? But it was that. It was like that deep grief that just, you know, just the loss of them. I was like it just like hit me, hit me like that, and I was, and I learned from that and, furthermore, I understood whaling and I got it. You know, I got it. It was so, it was so deep.

Cassandra: 26:53

And then, with the loss of, you know, someone who's, who's, who, someone has lost, someone has lost. But then, when you have lost someone, you have a deeper sense of for me, compassion, because growing up back in those days, I'm aging myself, but when somebody on our block would pass away, my mom or somebody in the block would take charge, go to each other's house. Go to somebody's house, write a note, give them food, give them money, and then my mom would take it to their home and I was like that's kind of weird. You know, growing up I'm like that's strange, but those were the things that they did. And the money part I'm like now, why are they giving them money?

Cassandra: 27:35

You know, just being naive and, yeah, just being naive, and that was just the tradition back then. I'm not certain what people. Well, I guess in my community I would do the same thing, but I would knock on people's doors Because when growing up we knew everybody. You know everybody was community, everybody was the village. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't know whether you know, when you have your, your coaching, do you coach groups or individuals of both?

Ebony: 28:20

I do both. Ok, which one are you, which one of those? How do you decide which one to do? I've only done group coaching once. Okay, most of my clients that I see now are individual, and maybe it's because I don't have a group for them to join. I don't know. Okay, but I don't mind doing individual. I feel like when I start to we're going to claim it.

Ebony: 28:41

When I start to get too many clients, then I will move to group. But I genuinely enjoy working with the individuals that I have, because individual and this is the difference between individual and group an individual is all about you, you know. In the group it's like you and everybody else you know. So we're not able to personally coach you per se. It's for the group, if that makes sense. So you'll get the understanding of grief and how to navigate and all that. But from a personal viewpoint, what you yourself need, you're not going to get that what's the longest you've coached somebody for grief and what's the shortest time?

Cassandra: 29:33

Because, as you, indicated everybody's different Right.

Ebony: 29:38

So normally I work with my clients for 12 weeks.

Cassandra: 29:42

Okay.

Ebony: 29:43

And then I'm sad when they leave, but some of them do come back. The shortest I would probably say is eight weeks.

Cassandra: 29:52

Okay, okay, that's great, that's good. If you could well, let me ask you, ebony, is this, what else do you do, or what's next for you? Do you think you'll be this grief counselor for a while?

Cassandra: 30:10

Because it's it, it it probably ministers to you as well absolutely yeah, yeah, um, and for you to be a grief counselor, I, I commend you. That to me is um, it's, it's. It doesn't remind me, but it makes me think of hospice, yeah, yeah, and how. I'm just like an awe for individuals that have that gift and that's something that they want to give back.

Ebony: 30:41

Yeah.

Cassandra: 30:42

Yeah, yeah. During the holiday season, now that it's the holidays, that is the holidays. What could you like to my listeners? What's a message of encouragement or insight for them to carry?

Ebony: 31:03

through the holiday season. Be gentle with yourself, um. Know that this is not a journey that you have to walk alone. There are people that will walk the journey with you, whether they are directly blood related to you or not. Have compassion, not just for yourself, but for others as well. Be OK, you know, with making plans, but be okay with changing the plans too.

Ebony: 31:36

Know that this is a time where you can be sad. You can always be sad. You know you don't need a day to be sad, but know that this is a time where your grief is valid. It's valid in general, but it's even more prominent and present during the holidays. So, no, you're not crazy, you know, for feeling any type of way, I don't care if it's the first year or it's been 30 years. The grief is always valid and, as I stated, during the holidays it's even more present. And so just know that it is OK to grieve. It doesn't matter the time frame or the period. It is okay to grieve. It doesn't matter the timeframe or the period. Um, no, like I said that this isn't a journey that you have to walk alone lean in your support system.

Ebony: 32:19

You know um pray. You know if you're a spiritual being, pray um. Look what the verses say. You know about grief and and and how to navigate that journey Um, grief and how to navigate that journey. That's all I can think of for now.

Cassandra: 32:34

That's good, that's very good, that's good.

Ebony: 32:45

And honor your loved one. Honor your loved one. If there were certain traditions and things that you guys used to do and you feel like you want to carry that on, then do that. But if you do not feel like you want to cook or whatever you guys used to do, then it's okay not to do that and create new traditions too.

Ebony: 33:00

I think that's super, super important when we do talk about grief and the holidays because, like I said, it can be overwhelming. So just finding ways to make this time more manageable for you that's what the word is when you were asking earlier. You don't get over it, or whatever. I think it's manageable. How do we make this?

Cassandra: 33:19

Yeah, that's a good one.

Ebony: 33:21

So we have to grow, we have to do the work in order to make it more manageable for us.

Cassandra: 33:27

Right. So, in other words, show yourself some compassion, right, no expectations. People like, well, I should get, I should have gotten over this by now. Oh, you know, I always go there.

Cassandra: 33:43

So I love that when you say you set your boundaries, you do what's good for you to do. You know, don't do it because you think this is what somebody else wants you to do. You know, don't do it because you think this is what somebody else wants you to do. That's not good. And I think, as a society and as we've grown up, people have expectations of us, you know. So we figure we have to, we have to meet those expectations. But no, it's about what's good for you and I like that.

Cassandra: 34:12

And even when people say, well, you need to get out of the house, you need to do this, you know, if you don't feel like getting out of the house, don't get out of the house. Well, I don't want you to be alone, ok, well, then maybe you go to next day and see them, you know. So it's no, as you indicate. I love it when you said that everybody grieves differently. There's no checklist. You know, we got to go by checklist. We got to do this, we got to do that Just being there for them, I think, is very, very important. And how could my listeners get in touch with you, ebony?

Ebony: 34:48

Yes, so online. My website is canigrieve. org. I'm also on Facebook and Instagram at canigrieve and my email is info at canigrieveorg. Now, do you do virtual?

Cassandra: 35:08

coaching. Now do you do virtual coaching?

Ebony: 35:12

I do, I do. I don't have an actual location. Ok, I love that Right Low overhead costs for a business owner, but also the fact that I'm able to service more people because you know, so obviously I'm in Maryland. I think you're in Maryland too. I'm able to you know I've had clients in Texas, you know, and in different states. So I love that.

Cassandra: 35:37

OK, ok, well, that is great, that is great. I want to thank you again. I want to wish my listeners Merry Christmas, happy holidays, and if they're not happy holidays for you this year, that's okay, don't feel bad about it. I mean, you know that is okay. And I'm hopeful that Ebony provided some information, some strategies, some tools that you can use to help you manage. I like that. Help you manage through this process. And please feel free to reach out, nobody's knowing that you may be the one to reach out. You may feel just better having it virtual, not having to go anywhere, talking to somebody that doesn't even know you, that you can just spill out your feelings, your heart, because I know you'll be in a safe space, in a safe place when you speak with Ebony. And so again, listeners and Ebony, I always say bye for now. I never say goodbye and I say God bless you and just bye for now. And again and again, ebony, thank you so much and God bless you as well, thank you so much.