Sell Like Jesus: Transforming Sales Through Ethics and Genuine Service with Deb Brown-Meyer

Can everyone be a salesperson, even if it’s not in their job title? Prepare to rethink everything you know about salesmanship in our enlightening conversation with Deb Brown-Meyer, the insightful author of "Sell Like Jesus." Deb's journey from various sales and customer service roles to the high-tech industry reveals her unique approach to sales as a form of problem-solving and service. She shares the transformative concept that we all engage in sales through our daily interactions, gaining buy-in from others around us. Deb also recounts her initial hesitation towards sales due to its high-pressure reputation and how she embraced a service-oriented approach, even launching her own business during the 2008 recession.

Ever wondered how ethical principles from the teachings of Jesus Christ can reshape sales strategies? Deb takes us through her divine-inspired methodology, emphasizing respect, integrity, and the power of listening and asking the right questions. By fostering genuine two-way conversations, these principles can create meaningful connections and strong character, transcending diverse cultural and faith backgrounds, including her unique experiences with Amish business owners. Ethical salesmanship, as Deb illustrates, is about being of service to others and can be universally applied across various environments.

Honesty and authenticity are at the core of effective sales, and Deb offers practical advice on how to communicate transparently, especially about budget discussions. She underscores the importance of setting clear agendas and expectations and discusses how practicing these conversations in daily life can build confidence. Deb also addresses the common mistake of undercutting value to be "nice," and the deeper fears that often underlie financial concerns. This episode is packed with valuable insights that redefine salesmanship as a practice rooted in ethical behavior and genuine service. For more insights and to connect with Deb, visit her website, debbrownsales.com. Tune in for a transformative discussion that promises to change your approach to sales forever.

Chapters

• 0:09 Empowering Through Sales
• 12:11 Ethical Sales Strategies Based on Christ
• 30:36 Sales Strategies for Authentic Communication
• 46:33 Contact Information for Deb Brown

Transcript

Cassandra: 0:09

Good day to my listeners out there. I'd like to welcome you to Is your Way, in your Way, and I'm your podcast host. My name is Cassandra Crawley-Mayo and, for those new listeners out there, let me share with you what this podcast is all about. It's for individuals who are ready to move forward in their lives. You know, you have, like, this kind of fire in your belly or this inkling that there's something else that you should be doing, but yet something's stopping you. You feel stuck. Have any of you ever felt like that? Well, that's what this is all about.

Cassandra: 0:44

So, anyway, it's an opportunity for you to, and we talk about topics that are personal business development and self-reflection. So we talk about those type of topics and hopefully that as we go through this process, you will resonate and you will start reflecting on some of the things, and then you may have an aha moment, and that's what we're hoping you'll have. And today our topic is sell. Like Jesus, everyone is in sales, and who better to talk about that is our special guest, deb Brown-Meyer. Guest Deb Brown-Meyer. Hello Deb.

Deb: 1:25

How are you? Hi Cassandra, I'm doing well. How are you?

Cassandra: 1:29

I'm doing great, and thanks for being on my show today. I've certainly appreciate it, and this is the first thing I do for my listeners. They want to know a little bit about you before we really take delve into our conversation, so I'm going to read a little bit of your bio. Deb is the author of Sell Like Jesus, a relationship catalyst that helps business owners and freelancers change their sales approach by shifting their sales perspective from convincing a prospect to buy to being of service to them. Deb's combination of coaching, creative listening and supportive guidance enables her clients to gain a new perspective on their sales process and conversations, which leads to increased sales and business growth success. In the past, deb worked in a high-tech industry for startups and multinational corporations. In 2008, she founded Deb Brown Sales and is honored to be a trusted consultant to many Amish business owners in Lancaster County, pennsylvania. Wow, that's interesting, deb, you know. The first thing, though, I'd like to ask is I'd like to hear about your backstory before you entered the high-tech industry. What was Deb about back then?

Deb: 3:00

So it took me a little while to figure out what I was really good at that meshed with the business arena. So I held a number of sales positions and customer service positions. Honestly, cassandra, I approach sales as a problem solver. I approach sales as a problem solver. Whatever product or service that I had to sell, it needed to solve a problem for the person who was going to buy it, and I enjoyed that whole process of uncovering what's really going on, that's causing the problem and how would my solution fit that or not.

Cassandra: 3:50

Okay, wow, it's interesting how you stated that everyone I mean everyone is in sales. I used to have a boss that used to say that, even though I wasn't in the sales department, but he always said that I sell, everybody sells. When you say that, what do you mean? How does everyone be in sales? How?

Deb: 4:15

is that? Well, think about how many times during the day do you need to get buyin from another person, from your children, from your spouse, from your co-workers, from your boss, from your friends? Getting buy-in means you gain agreement, you decide on a course of action, you decide on where to go on vacation, you agree to how you're going, what time you're going to have dinner. I mean whenever two individuals interact and one wants one thing and one wants another and they're in opposition and one wants one thing and one wants another and they're in opposition.

Deb: 5:10

People might call that compromise or negotiation, but honestly, life goes better when we do that in a way that we gain agreement and we come to the same side. That is salesmanship.

Cassandra: 5:27

Wow, I've never thought of it in that way. Like you said, we're selling everything. I mean we want to have buy-in just during the day. Even people, like you said, on your job If you have a thought or idea, you want to present that to your boss, Even if you don't know simple as a hairstylist, you know you want customers, Right, so you have to like sell yourself to see whether there's somebody that wants to be your customer.

Cassandra: 6:01

That's interesting, yeah. Now I noticed, though, in in 2008 is when you started your business, and, if I'm not mistaken, wasn't that around the recession?

Deb: 6:32

Thank you for noticing. Yeah, so this is a little bit more of my backstory. How did I get into sales permanently in my professional life? How did I write a book about sales? Yeah, so I was a reluctant salesperson and I bet many of your listeners can identify with that, because I was always passionate about what I had to sell, what I wanted to sell, but I wasn't passionate about the sales process, because nobody wants to be high pressured and the high pressure sales techniques are embedded in the psyche of the world. You can't today, you can't go a full day without some kind of high pressure sales technique being used on you, because it's used on us all the time and nobody really likes it. Because I'll buy if I want to, I'll buy what I want when I want. Because we don't like it, we don't want to be associated with that and if sales means I have to do that, ick, don't want any parts of it, right, right?

Cassandra: 7:52

exactly, exactly.

Deb: 7:54

So when I say I was a reluctant salesperson, it's because I didn't want to be associated I even get when I am that icky feeling that pressured. But God had a different path for me. He and I went back and forth because I kept trying to get jobs that weren't sales and he kept opening doors for sales jobs. You mentioned the high tech industry. It was 1998 that I high-tech industry, into the and I was there for almost 10 years. Well, when I got tired of the politics of the 30,000 person corporation, and decided to quit, I was just going to get another tech sales job, yeah, and all the doors were shut. Wow. Wow.

Deb: 9:10

And the Lord said I want you to start your own business. And I said yeah, but yeah, but, because I like the constant paycheck, I liked vacation pay, sick pay, benefits, all that, you know. Control, perceived control, right, not really Uh-huh. So it was about nine months, yes, ladies, the gestation period of a child that I resisted the Lord's prompting, especially because the economy was kind of topsy turvy already, and finally I had my own come to Jesus moment.

Deb: 10:07

I had my own come to Jesus moment it was a conversation between me and the Lord where I heard him say to me are you going to call me a liar? I made you good at sales. Are you?

Deb: 10:16

going to call me a liar. And I went, ouch, don't want to do that, ouch, don't want to do that. And he said if you say yes, I will help you. Okay, so I took a deep breath, and I said yes. On January 1st 2008, I hung my shingle and started contacting people that I knew in the business community and said I'm doing sales coaching. Who do you know that I should be talking to? Okay, and I started getting clients. And Cassandra he the Lord, was true to his word blessed me, he blessed In my first year, business. I made $30,000 coaching. It tripled the second year and it tripled the third year. Oh, amazing. Amazing.

Deb: 11:22

So I stand in awe of the good things that can happen for us when we are willing to get out of our own way. Yeah, yeah, that dream, that prompting, that desire, that longing, yeah, that we know is right, but comes wrapped in a package coated with fear.

Cassandra: 11:57

Yeah, that's right, absolutely. I applaud you for that and I'm glad you were obedient, because God just showed up and showed out in your life and I think that in itself is a blessing. So tell us, like when you say sell like Jesus, first of all, what are the characteristics? Like I think you said there were seven characteristics of Christ for ethical sales, could you explain what, explain what those are?

Deb: 12:29

Yeah, so just give you a little bit of background on the book itself. Okay, so writing the book was not my idea. Okay, it was the Lord's idea. He gave me the title and it took me about seven years to become an author and actually figure out what I needed to write about. And to whom?

Deb: 13:12

Faith is strong. The way that I have been successful at sales was always to treat people as I would want to be treated, which is biblical, and to do things in a way that I could look at myself in the mirror at the end of every day and say I did right, I did well, and that God could be pleased with what I had done. And so I was a student of psychology and applied biblical principles to the sales conversation. Okay, and so Jesus is the perfect model for how to have what are often difficult conversations. That's true, so much of his time he was teaching and there's some teaching that we do in sales. But, honestly, of the seven characteristics that I write about in the book, the two that everything comes back to are listening and asking effective questions.

Cassandra: 14:38

Okay.

Deb: 14:40

And I say listening first. Yeah, because if we're coming with a script and a message that we want to deliver, that is one-sided, that's me to you. And if I am delivering that without knowing anything about you, I have no clue as to whether what I'm saying is of interest, is phrased in a way that you can understand, is something that you would want to learn more about. It's one-sided. And so if we're listening, gosh, what are we listening for? Well, when you're in sales, you're listening to the person and why. They've tried to contact you.

Deb: 15:42

Something's going on that they reached out or they were receptive when you called or got your email or saw your post, so we need to understand what's going on in their mind, their world, what are their concerns, what are they? What problem here? We are what problem are they trying to solve?

Cassandra: 16:10

Yeah.

Deb: 16:11

And if I don't listen with the intent of understanding versus and this is what we all do, myself included analyzing it and then formulating a question based on what we just heard.

Cassandra: 16:46

Okay, okay. So what are the other five? We have the listening.

Deb: 16:53

Well, actually here, let me go down the list. Okay, I'm going to read it because I don't trust my memory to not miss one. Okay, so I looked at how did Christ behave. So the first one, the first characteristic, is his character. What character did he display? What character did he display? What was the purpose? That he was all about. The second one is the characteristic of connecting, and when you're in sales, it's not everyone who could use what you have to offer. Right.

Deb: 17:42

There is an ideal target audience and, because we all have limited time and limited money, we need to be very focused on who we are targeting. I said earlier I needed to know who I was writing the book to. Right A very narrow audience that I wrote to because they're ideally suited to hear this message and it's a small business entrepreneur who has to sell but needs to sell. Okay, they have to sell, but needs to sell. Okay.

Deb: 18:17

You have to sell because they're too small to hire a salesperson. Exactly Right, and that's most entrepreneurs, bootstrappers, small business owners, freelancers. So target audience is part and your connection is going to be based on who are you trying to reach.

Cassandra: 18:39

Exactly.

Deb: 18:41

The third characteristic is clarity. And how can we be clear unless we are prepared and we prepare others for the encounter with us? This is a concept that very few people consider. Okay, let me simplify it by saying whenever you go to a meeting, there's an agenda, and if there isn't an agenda, what usually happens to the meeting?

Cassandra: 19:17

Who knows?

Deb: 19:20

Gets off track free for all.

Cassandra: 19:22

Takes too long.

Deb: 19:24

Right, no focus. So this is where I talk about setting an agenda for the conversation, whether it's a sales call or a meeting with your boss or your subordinates, have an agenda, verbalize the agenda and gain agreement to the agenda Mm-hmm. That way your conversation stays on point. That way, and probably more important, people are put at ease because they know what to expect. Right, okay, okay. And that's huge in sales, because whenever people feel like you're selling shields, go up, that's right. Defenses go front, that's right. Defenses go front, that's right. And they don't trust. That's the default position. They don't trust, right. So this agenda setting, or I call it expectation setting, is a way to put both the prospect and yourself at ease. Okay.

Cassandra: 20:44

Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, like what I was reading, you talked about my relationship of service and knowing with God, he is at service, I mean, he provides a service and you know so when you go out into the world. I mean, how do you do that?

Deb: 21:20

It. So when I don't know someone's faith orientation, yes, I'm still the same person as when I do. Okay, when I don't know, I am still speaking truth. Okay, when I do know, as you mentioned reading my bio, working with the Amish, there is no separation of God from anything in their world.

Deb: 21:56

God is at work, god is at home, god is in everything, and so when I work with them, I support what I'm teaching with scripture. Okay, okay, okay. So I'm either less blatant or more blatant about the source of what I'm doing, how I'm doing it why I'm doing it that way.

Cassandra: 22:27

Does that make sense? Mm-hmm, because that's your audience. So you already know the culture, right?

Deb: 22:32

Now I have worked in corporations, I'm corporations, I still have some contract work with a national corporation and when I am in the larger meetings around, you know multiple layers of management. I just take my cue from who's in the room.

Deb: 22:56

I just take my cue from who's in the room and I have been teaching in corporate offices, where someone in the room will bring up their faith and how it's pertinent to the topic we're discussing, and so we have freedom to do that because they talked about it. So I'm not pushing Jesus on people. I'm living according to my faith and my standards that are based in my faith. For example, I've had people ask me to do things that I, that are, in my world, unethical yes, and I'm not going to slam them. Okay, I'm simply. I simply respond Right, I'm not. I'm sorry, I'm going to have to decline. I am not comfortable doing that. Okay, all right. So I make a stand for my faith without any of the trappings or announcements, or it's just I'm living my values and I stick true to my values.

Cassandra: 24:18

Okay, and when I do, it becomes an invitation for others to be true to their values also okay so you say, like selling without a strategy is very costly, yes, so um, explain, like the now, much of it is probably part of the characteristics of Christ. You know the seven characteristics. But like, for example, if someone is wanting to maybe open up a business, if you need a loan, you know, to open up the business, what methodology would you have them to use in the instance like that, because they're selling? Yeah. Right.

Deb: 25:11

Yes, yes, that's a great application of sales. I love that. So they're selling themselves, their business, their idea, their projections, yes To the banker or whoever the lender is Right. So there is a lot involved here there is a structure.

Deb: 25:38

So there's going to be a step one, two, three, four kind of structure that you want to apply. But there's also the strategy of think like the lender. They give you an application. Of course you have to fill that out, but beyond that, how is this lender thinking? What's important to them and how does my business idea fit that need? Just giving thought to that is very important, okay, because that will shape how you present the material about your business opportunity.

Deb: 26:30

So there's a cut and dry must do to talk about costs, fixed costs and revenue projections and profit margin. There's all that to consider. But beyond that, how are you going to present that information? Well, if you know what the trigger point is for the lender, you're constantly able to frame your business opportunity in that light. There's also, in going through that whole process, it's going to test your business model. And so, again on the prep work side, so many people think, oh, I want to open a hair salon and I know what my costs are and I know what I'm going to pay my people and I know what my rent is and I think X amount will be good for advertising. Okay, what did you base all of that on? Have you spoken to someone who's run that kind of business successfully in your market? Have you talked to people outside of your market who are successful and ask them the questions what did you foresee that was accurate and what did you miss? What should I be looking at that?

Deb: 28:13

I'm not even thinking about what caught you by surprise okay right all right because when we're excited and we're passionate, we want it to work. It's like the honeymoon phase of a relationship and everything is rainbows and roses and flower smells and you know, nothing can go wrong with this, because it's my idea and it's going to work, because I'm going to work really hard. Yeah.

Deb: 28:47

Yes, and you have to also take the pessimistic eyeglasses and put them on and say what's wrong and what's worst case scenario. I think rent's going to be this much. What if they up it in the first year be prepared right, I'm not expecting that yeah what is that and and what am I able to charge?

Deb: 29:12

profit margin wise, what will the market bear and can I absorb that? So you see, a lot of it is being willing to look at all those things that might not go the way you want them to so that sounds like.

Cassandra: 29:32

Is that more of like a win-win?

Deb: 29:36

say more, tell me more of what you're thinking.

Cassandra: 29:39

Well, you know, first of all, we talk about this being, you know, talking about selling. Like Jesus, you want to be of service. Jesus served um. So what you're doing is you're serving and can pay back your loan to the lender and vice versa. He's he's going to go ahead and lend you that because you were able to share and state a great business plan that enables you for him to see, or her to see, that this is a great plan and based on the strategy the strategy that they're using to open their business and move forward, I know that I'm going to get paid back Exactly.

Deb: 30:26

And people, and this goes for anyone who is in the buyer seat. Mm-hmm.

Deb: 30:36

I appreciate when I'm about to purchase something and the salesperson says I can do this much, but this little piece over here I'm not going to be able to do. Does that? Does that mean we should stop Over promise? I'm going to respect them more by them saying can't do this Right, and I'm more likely to buy, which is counterintuitive Right. Everybody thinks no, you don't have to say that no when you know there's a red flag and you don't raise that red flag. Yeah.

Deb: 31:19

Now you're the one that's hiding things and that's really close to lying, and I know what the good book says about that. Yeah, I want those parts of it, so I'm going to err on the side of being too honest in the world's you know perspective. Maybe because I don't want any false promises, I don't want any misunderstandings, I don't want any backouts. I don't want any bad publicity after the fact because you weren't satisfied, because I didn't. I wasn't a hundred percent honest about something.

Cassandra: 31:58

I wasn't 100% honest about something Right right. So they saw the authenticity, the candor that you shared and all of those are characteristics of Jesus and that's why you say sell like Jesus. Yes, you were talking about. I read some information that you were saying. There were certain phrases one should memorize in this process. What are those?

Deb: 32:23

phrases, so they are transition phrases that get you from one step to the next. So I mentioned earlier about setting an agenda or setting expectations. Right, a generic kind of expectation would sound like this hey, cassandra, thanks for sitting down with me today. Here's what I was hoping we could accomplish. I'd love to hear your thoughts and get a better understanding of where you're coming from. Also, I'd like to answer any questions that you have so that you can make a good decision about whether we move forward or not. Okay, and so, after we ask and answer some questions of each other, I'd love to be able to put our heads together and say either yes, we move forward or no, we don't.

Deb: 33:29

And a no, is perfectly fine. Okay. How does that sound to you?

Cassandra: 33:35

Okay.

Deb: 33:37

All right. So that's one of the things that sound to you. That's your transition, because I don't get buy in there. I want the person to be on board, bought in to the fact that we're going to have a dialogue, we're going to decide either we move forward or we don't. Notice, I didn't say either you buy or you don't. Right Forward. Yes. Because moving forward there can be multiple steps in this process.

Cassandra: 34:13

Mm, hmm, mm, hmm, and that provides a way, like you said, no, or, and it's a simplistic way of asking. It's open ended, you know. So you discuss it rather than just saying a hard no or a hard yes. Yeah, ok, exactly.

Deb: 34:35

Yeah, so the only thing I'm getting by into at that point is the agenda. We're going to ask and answer some questions of each other, and then we'll figure out what we do next. We'll figure it out together, okay, whenever people try to do it for the first time, they go oh this is really awkward. Yeah, nobody does this and yes, it is awkward. And so I always advocate practicing. And where do you practice? You practice on your family. Okay. Because that's where you have to get buy-in every day. Okay.

Deb: 35:16

So you try these techniques on with people who love you and you can stutter and stammer and get your feet under you before you try it in a business.

Cassandra: 35:27

Right, so that what you just shared is just a phase.

Deb: 35:32

Well, the transition phase. You have to make sure you ask that question. Okay, how does that sound to you? Okay, Because that will get the buy-in that allows you to go to the next phase. Which is why don't you start? Tell me, why did you contact me? All right, so the you'll notice I I never say the same phrase exactly the same.

Cassandra: 36:09

Yeah, twice why it's?

Deb: 36:10

it's more learning the intention, learning the flow and the intention of when you know it's time to go to the next step. Okay, so it is very methodical when you're in a sales role, because if someone doesn't have a problem that hurts badly enough, it doesn't matter what their budget or decision-making process is, so we don't even need to talk about those if the problem isn't severe enough. Exactly, exactly. If they have a problem and it is severe now we need to talk about the budget. They need to be able to pay for it, and this is where a lot of Christians get caught.

Deb: 37:10

The worker is worth his wage.

Cassandra: 37:13

The worker is worth her wage, right.

Deb: 37:17

So what you're saying is we undercut Uh-huh? Okay, because we want to be nice, because we mix up being godly and Christian with giving away the farm, so to speak. Okay. Okay. And as we undercut, we diminish our value and their respect Right. And here's another one of those weird kingdom ironies. In the kingdom we stand our ground and we are nurturingly assertive In the world. The bullies beat us down and we go oh okay. And then we wonder why we're not respected.

Cassandra: 38:06

Right, okay, that's good.

Deb: 38:12

So I understand money is always an issue and I'm'm curious what kind of budget have you set aside to take care of this problem?

Cassandra: 38:22

Yeah, that's good. I call that the elephant in the room. Nobody really wants to talk about that.

Deb: 38:29

And so I preface my question with the statement I know money is always an issue. I know you want to be a good steward of your money. Mm-hmm.

Deb: 38:42

So what have you budgeted? Okay, what do you think it's going to take? Right? And then another piece that many people overlook in sales money is really a small part of the decision process. People will make a lot of noise like it's the only issue, when, in reality, fear of making a mistake will override a big bank account, a more than generous bank account, because fear will keep us from doing what is needed. Okay, so to ask people, what are the non-monetary considerations that we need to look at? So, for example, if you're selling any kind of product that interrupts workflow at a company, you're going to have an initial learning curve, lack of productivity, so there's going to be resistance to change and a decline in productivity before you realize the actual benefits. So why not bring that out in the open during the sales call? Don't wait until you've sold it and it's implemented. And now they're going. Oh my gosh, these people. They're only getting half the amount of work done. This is horrible. We made a horrible decision. Right.

Deb: 40:33

I'm going to. It happened way too often, so I'm going to bring it up in the beginning and say let's think about this. What do you think is going to happen to productivity? How many people do you think are going to readily embrace this change? How many do you think are going to resist it, and what kinds of things can we do together? Now I'm positioning myself as a consultant. What can we do together to lessen the blow? Who else do I need to talk to before you sign on the dotted line, to make sure they're comfortable their questions are answered?

Cassandra: 41:13

Yeah, that's very important because change is inevitable. However, people will resist it, so let's put that on the table as well, so we can work through that. Right, that's a good one. Let me ask you, this is for my listeners. All of my listeners have goals, dreams, et cetera, yet they are stuck in regards to moving forward. What strategy would you use that would bless them to move forward? Because that's what this show is about. It's like okay, I don't want to do this. I have this dream, I have this vision, but yet it's kind of like you said, you spent six, eight years with the book just thinking through it.

Cassandra: 42:06

You know, so what strategy would you use? Or can you help them, to bless them to move forward?

Deb: 42:15

Yeah. So there are a couple of things. Data speaks volumes. So when you have a dream and you haven't yet counted the cost, go and count the cost. Okay, do the research? Count the cost. Take a class and interview someone from that world. Ask them greatest successes but, more importantly, ask them greatest failures Right and how they overcame. So data can get us out of that position of fear that's holding us stuck. Okay.

Deb: 43:02

And there are a multitude of ways to get data, sometimes just talking to the 80-year-old retired, such and such right. There is a wealth of knowledge that can give you insight and foresight and spark new direction and spark creativity.

Cassandra: 43:25

Right.

Deb: 43:28

And pray to the Lord and ask him. Ask him what would you have me do to help bring clarity? And then also ask what is keeping me stuck? Okay, because the holy spirit knows us better than we know ourselves. Yes, and if we will say, holy Spirit, shine your light on the dark corner that needs illumination. Show me what I'm afraid of, right, so we together can deal with it.

Cassandra: 44:16

Exactly? What are those limiting beliefs, those negative self-talk? So it sounds like, even if I have people that's listening, that want to be a speaker, maybe an author or an advocate for something, business owners, solar entrepreneur, a gamut of things they want to be promoted. So, first of all, like you indicated, whatever it is you want to do, the data you want to research, you know, if you want to be promoted, find out that position. What does that position entail? What are the pros and cons of that position? Um, who's somebody somebody doing the same thing.

Cassandra: 45:05

Ask God to reveal what is it that has you stuck, Right? So, deb, yeah, this is a great time to wrap our conversation up because it's said, Sell, like Jesus, everyone's in sales. Remember what the characteristics are. You'd like the people to do the same things that Jesus would do and to know, whatever you do in your daily life, you're, you're selling. Yes, right.

Cassandra: 45:46

So, with that said, I just want to thank you and my listeners. I know they have acquired a lot of information and now have a different perspective on sell, like Jesus what a topic and to know that everyone everybody's in sales. So I want to thank you and I tell my listeners if you see that this podcast session was of value, please share it. And also, it will be on every podcast platform and it will be released in May, so I encourage you all to replay it if you miss some points or need some information. Deb, how can people contact you?

Deb: 46:37

The best way is through my website, debbrownsalescom. Okay.

Cassandra: 46:44

Okay, my listeners, so you know how you can contact Deb and you know how you can contact me as well. And again, rather than say go odbye to my li steners, I always say bye for now, Bye for now. God bless you all and stay tuned for the next podcast. Thanks so much and God bless you.