Breaking Barriers: Cheryl Mason's Journey of Leadership, Resilience, and Advocacy in the Veteran Community

Can you imagine the resilience it takes to break barriers and become the first woman and military spouse to chair the Board of Veterans of the Department of Veterans Affairs? Cheryl Mason joins us today to share her remarkable journey. From navigating the stigma of her father's suicide in southern Ohio to finding her stride as an influential attorney despite the career discouragements faced by military spouses, Cheryl's story is one of perseverance and profound personal growth. She opens up about the pivotal support from her community and how her commitment to advocacy for veterans and military families shaped her path.

Transitioning roles can often feel like a setback, but sometimes it's those moments that teach us the most valuable lessons. I recount my own experience of moving from a high-ranking federal position to an executive assistant role in Germany, which dramatically shifted my perspective on leadership and teamwork. Cheryl discusses the crucial role of building authentic relationships with team members and understanding their lives beyond the professional sphere. These genuine connections can drive team success and make everyone feel valued and purposeful in their roles.

Leadership, burnout, and resilience are at the core of our discussion. We explore the heavy toll that managing large workloads can take, especially during challenging times like the pandemic. Cheryl shares her strategies for setting boundaries and maintaining a balance to prevent burnout, fostering a resilient team environment. We also delve into the importance of inspiring future leaders from diverse generations and how stepping out of comfort zones can lead to significant personal and professional growth. Tune in to discover how finding inspiration, taking action, and connecting with others can propel you towards your goals and help you live your best life.

Get ready to break free from obstacles and live life on your terms!

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Chapters

• 0:43 Perspective, Purpose, Impact, Value Interview
• 13:19 Navigating Life's Challenges as a Leader
• 27:52 Leadership, Burnout, and Resilience
• 33:29 Embracing Change and Growth Through Leadership
• 47:15 Finding Inspiration and Taking Action

Transcript

Cassandra: 0:43

Good day out there. My listeners, welcome to Is your Way, in your Way, and I'm your host. My name is Cassandra Crawley-Mayo, and for those new listeners out there, first of all, welcome, and let me share with you what this podcast is all about. It's for those individuals who really, really want to move forward in their lives. They've realized that there's something else. They have some goals and some dreams that they'd like to accomplish, but they're stuck. They're not quite sure why am I stuck? Why am I stuck in these circumstances of why can't I do what I've always wanted to do and why do I have imposter syndrome and why am I procrastinating and all of those things? So this is an opportunity for individuals to mitigate those self-imposed barriers that's preventing you from living your best life, and we talk about topics such as personal and business development and also enables you to do some self-reflection. So today, our topic is perspective, leads to purpose, impact and value. And who better to talk to us about this as our special guest, Cheri Mason? Hi, Cheri.

Cheryl: 2:04

Hi, cassandra, it's so wonderful to be here.

Cassandra: 2:07

I'm so glad you're here. I'm just looking forward to the things that we're going to talk about, to kind of open the doors and give more insight to the listeners out here today and giving them an opportunity to understand their perspectives and how it can lead to their purpose, impact and value. Oh, this is what I'm going to do. Listeners, I'm going to read a little bit of Cheryl's bio, which we call a Ch er's background so that you can get to know her a little bit. So, first of all, she's the Honorable Cheryl L Mason. From Portsmouth, ohio. She became the nation's first woman and military spouse to chair the Board of Veterans Appeals of the Department of Veterans Affairs. She transformed the organization by prioritizing her team and fostering innovation, achieving record breaking results for veterans and their families. As a speaker and author of Dare to Relate, leading with a fierce heart, Cheri shares her journey as a multiple suicide loss survivor and a military spouse. She holds a BA in political science and psychology from Ohio Northern University and a JD from Creighton University School of Law.

Cassandra: 3:33

Cheri actively supports veteran and military communities, focusing on leadership, transition and suicide awareness. So I bet there's some listeners out there that perhaps are military spouses, know someone that's been in the military and can really relate to this. Now I want to ask C heri a question because of her journey, and we would love to know where she is as of today. So, C heri, my question to you, if I there's a scale I'm going to give you a scale of one to ten, ten being the highest and my question is where are you on the scale to living your best life, on your terms, at this time in your life? From a scale of one to ten?

Cheryl: 4:25

I would say I'm probably somewhere around a seven, headed towards an eight.

Cassandra: 4:29

I would say I'm probably somewhere around a seven, headed towards an eight. Okay, that's good, and I bet there were some parts of your life or sometimes where you were probably a little lower on the scale.

Cheryl: 4:45

Yeah, there were some times that I was like a one or two or maybe a sub number, negative number, right, okay, okay.

Cassandra: 4:47

So here this listener. So now let's talk about how does she scale up, so to speak? You know like what happened, because some of you may be at a scale of one to two or some of them are seven. So let's up and her number up. What I'd say now is what Cheryl did to move her scale up Cheryl, what was your life like before you became an attorney? And my understanding is you were a young attorney, so what was life like before that?

Cheryl: 5:14

Well, you know, growing up I grew up in southern Ohio, which is in the foothills of Appalachia, and it's a beautiful country area of the country but it's a hard area of the country and it's gotten harder in the years since. But you know, I lost my father at a fairly young age to suicide and he was a veteran and that really changed how people looked at my mother and I.

Cheryl: 5:41

They, would turn. They would turn their backs on us and, um, yeah, they, they really tried to make us invisible, and so that was hard.

Cassandra: 5:56

Yeah.

Cheryl: 5:57

Now, now my mom was a world war II Rosie the Riveter type and she went to college. She was the first to go to college and she wouldn't allow any of that. She wouldn't accept it. And so she told me you know, you have to be your own person and you have to stand and be proud of who you are. So she really kind of taught me that. And in the community it was the veterans, the veteran and military community that came around and supported us when others from us and so, and then you know, went college, um, and I met and married my husband who was in the air force, and I became a military spouse and I really talked about it as it was really kind of going from the the frying pan of the little girl from appalachia who's trying to figure out her way into the fire of a military spouse, because at that time military spouses weren't supposed to work.

Cheryl: 6:52

You weren't supposed to want a career. Your job was to support your husband in the military. And they, the senior military spouses, were very clear about that. And again they told me I was. You know, I couldn't have a career. Well, I was in law school. That wasn't quite going to work. And so we figured. You know, I figured out my path. I found people again who supported me and encouraged me. Most of them at that time were military spouses.

Cheryl: 7:24

And you know, since then there's been a huge turnaround in the military spouse community. Since then there's been a huge turnaround in the military spouse community and now spouses, senior spouses, everyone supports military spouse employment and engagement. But it was hard because I was living in, we spent some time in Nebraska, we lived in Germany, we lived in Virginia and so you're moving around a lot. You're trying to figure out who you are.

Cheryl: 7:53

You're trying to carve your path and there were some times there on your scale that I was down at a one because I was like what, what am I supposed to do? I can't find a job. I can't, you know, um, connect with people. It was, it was hard, and so I just kept thinking no, no, I'm supposed I'm, I have a, I have a purpose, I'm here for a reason. I know I'm meant to impact, and so I kept looking for ways to do that.

Cassandra: 8:13

Yeah, yeah, all right, all right. Well, because the spouses were not supposed to work, right. So I'm very curious to what that transition was from being that that attorney, and then you transitioned and worked for the department of veterans affair. So how did you get that and what was that transition like, based on the stereotypical that the veterans, or that industry, I would say, looked upon or didn't want you to, so that transition had to be pretty interesting.

Cheryl: 8:59

Yeah, it was. It was a hard transition, but you know, there are people who you come across in your path in your life and they can really open your eyes and provide you a new perspective. And so one of those people was a colonel at the Air Force Base off at Air Force Base in Nebraska, and I went in and asked for an internship and he said yes, he was. He was the colonel in charge of the of the whole judge advocate general office and he said yes, and I didn't realize that he had been there like two months. So, you know, we formed, we formed a relationship and I worked directly with him and I can't come to find out, he was one of the Vietnam war prisoners at the Hanoi Hilton for seven years, um and so. But you know, when I found that out about him, I it was really um, eyeopening, because this man you know his name's, hank Fowler. He's an amazing person. He just had this Zen quality and he never got upset about anything he didn't really get.

Cheryl: 10:18

He was just Zen and he enjoyed life and he enjoyed, you know he'd come in chuckling at things Because he was watching at that time this was the late 80s Because he was watching at that time this was the late 80s. He was actually watching videotapes at that time of shows that were on while he had been captured, and so he found them amusing. So he'd come in telling these jokes and I'd be like girl those are, like you know, from the 70s and so one of the things I learned from him was the importance of veterans benefits.

Cheryl: 10:53

Okay, I of course knew that a little bit because I received some as a result of the death of my father for me to go to college, but I didn't realize the impact that the benefits and services have on the veterans and their families. And Hank really taught me that and showed me that. And so when we were moving, of course, transitioning to Virginia, he said you know, I really think that you should apply to work at the VA, and by then I was out of law school. He tried to get me to join the military, but I said one of us.

Cassandra: 11:28

Yeah, that's enough, right, yeah?

Cheryl: 11:32

get me to join the military. But I said one of us is enough, right, yeah, so so he recommended me. He recommended that I apply to VA and I did and they hired me and as a young attorney, and it was a fit.

Cheryl: 11:42

I worked at the board of veterans appeals where I eventually became chairman, many years later, after some other you know leaving and coming back and all that stuff but you know it was a perfect fit because a lot of the cases were mental health cases. I had a degree in both political science and psychology, as well as a law school, as well as a law degree and so and you know, writing, it was a lot of research and writing and reviewing the files and I found that I enjoyed it and I was good at it and I felt like I was making an impact. I found my purpose Right.

Cheryl: 12:41

And because I was helping people and I was giving back to the community that helped me. So, you know, that's that's kind of what I did. The military spouses, you know, kind of just got used to the fact that I was going to do what I was going to do and we came to a happy medium with the senior spouses, as long as I didn't show up and cause a ruckus. You know now, the senior military spouses, like I said, are a complete different perspective. Yeah, yeah, they had a complete different perspective.

Cassandra: 13:10

Yeah, yeah, you know from your tender young age what lessons did you learn from what life presented you with?

Cheryl: 13:19

Well, what I learned really early and I kept learning it over and over again was that life gives you obstacles. It does. It's challenges, there's barriers, and it's really what how you perceive them.

Cheryl: 13:34

Are you going to let them put you in the corner and, you know, keep you there or are you going to say, nope, I can. I can overcome that, I can get past that? And and that's something that my mother really reinforced in me, because she said you know life, you know she used to say this to me all the time, and I said it to my kids when I was raising them life is hard, it's how you decide to live it that makes a difference, and so I viewed those obstacles and challenges as I learned to view them. It took some time, but I learned to view them as opportunities, as catalysts to propel me. What can I learn from this? What can I take away from it?

Cheryl: 14:20

I left DC as a GS-13 in the federal government, which is relatively high placed grade in attorney and we went to Germany and I had resigned my position because I got bad advice and so I got to Germany and I couldn't find a job and it was really hard and I was depressed and you know I was. I was also pregnant at the time and you know, and it was, it was challenging because I was like, wait a minute, you know I have something to offer here, I can do something. And eventually, through the military spouse community, ok, I got a job as an executive assistant and people you know, my friends who were lawyers like that's not how the ladder works. Oh, you know, at first I thought, well, they're right. But then, when I took the job and I learned what I learned in that job, yeah, they weren't right because, although it didn't present like an opportunity, yeah it was a huge opportunity for me to learn really how to be an executive and how to manage that world.

Cheryl: 15:28

And when I came back to the States and went back to the VA and eventually became climbing the ladder, I used some of the skills I had learned.

Cassandra: 15:37

Okay, so it sounds like so. In other words, people thought you took a demotion because you did. Yeah, that's interesting.

Cheryl: 15:47

Yeah.

Cassandra: 15:50

OK, All right, and because people that you know and I can recall in my career too, where I took like a sidestep a bit, but yet it propelled me to to move forward, move to the what I said upper executive, and I did learn a lot. So I say that for my listeners, because sometimes you're like I'm not taking that because that's a lateral move, that's not what I want, but sometimes, as you indicated, based on your perspective, it may be the right thing to do.

Cheryl: 16:28

Sometimes you have to go, like you did, sideways, or like I did, a perception of moving back to go forward, but then your forward momentum is much more than you ever expected.

Cassandra: 16:42

Yes, so how did that shape you as a leader?

Cheryl: 16:46

Well, you know, all along, one of the things, I really one of the things when you're writing a book, you kind of get the chance to reflect on things and I often would say, where did I learn that?

Cheryl: 17:05

When you're writing the book, you figure that out. Dealing with those challenges as an early military spouse was, I learned the importance and impact that people and relationships can have and it can be negative or it can be positive, but that is a big deal. And I realized, you know, leaders have the ability and the opportunity to, you know, really grow that and develop that and support that with their employees if they choose to. And so when I started stepping into leadership roles, I started leading with my people. I would get to know them. I mean, I didn't know their personal lives and they didn't know mine, but we knew a little bit. We knew, kind of, what we like to do and who had kids, who had animals, things like that and and just relating to them as people, right, and what I discovered was that my team, all my teams that I had, were successful and people would come to me and go how are you doing this?

Cheryl: 18:15

What's how are. What's your secret? You know because at the time, you know, I was one of 10 leaders. I was a chief judge and I had about went from a judge to a chief judge at VA and you know, with when I was a judge, I had about 10, nine or 10 people working for me. Then chief judge I, when I started, I had about 50. And by the time I finished as a chief judge and moved to the next level, I had a hundred.

Cheryl: 18:41

But the team was successful and people was like how, how do you do that? And I'm like it's all about relationships. And they would look at me like I lost my mind. Yeah, because they said they can't be it. And I said but it is. And so that's really the key that I learned. Now, you know, not everybody's going to be comfortable, you know, relating to you, and so you have to figure out different ways to connect with the people of your organization, the people you're working with, um, you know, from bosses to colleagues, to employees, it's a very different relationship that you have. But what I I realized and I realized this I talked about in the book I had an epiphany when I had a leadership assessment and was working with an executive coach is that my style of leadership brought people something valuable, because I generally related and cared for them and they knew it. And people, all of us, no matter what we do, we don't want to matter, we want to have purpose.

Cheryl: 19:43

Yes, right, and if you don't think your organization or your leader or anybody cares about you. That's going to affect you. And and it can. It can, you know, stop you in your tracks, it can send you in a different direction that you might not think. Oh, I can't do that because nobody believes in me. Well, wait a minute, you know, stop and assess, because I bet you I just bet you that there's somebody out there that does.

Cassandra: 20:22

Yes, exactly Exactly, Cheri know, today, in You know leadership positions, what I'm always hearing are different generations and the challenges that they have, and I'm certain in what you were doing, you also manage different generations. They talk about the millennials and the Gen Xs and how it is and how difficult their work ethic is different. Their character is different. You know they're in the technology world. How did you handle that or did you find that different?

Cheryl: 20:49

Well, I think you know one of the things I will say is the generations are different because they've had different exposures in different environments. But it's, it's really about environment, like I'm the tail end of the baby movers. I'm literally the tail wagon, that dog right yes, and so my perception about things about you know, staying at one organization and and being you know and and working there and doing things is much different than that of my Gen Z, 24 year old son or my millennial, 29 year old son, right.

Cheryl: 21:24

But then I had when as a chief executive, I had boomers, I had next gens, I had Gen X. You know the whole range and what I found is, yes, their environments, where they came from, are different. But, the importance of that again goes back to relationships. What's important to them, Okay, and how do you connect to them? And then how do you help them connect to each other? So, for example, I might have a Gen Z person who is very, very good with technology right and can assess it.

Cheryl: 21:59

Millennials are the same way. I mean, they grew up with it. Of course it's, you know, it's second nature Me. I'm an alien, I'm a digital alien, right, you know, but you know.

Cheryl: 22:11

But that was the thing was having those people and understanding the perspectives and the experiences that they brought to the table and having them connect and relate with their colleagues who have a different environment, whether they're baby boomers or Gen Xers or next gens, whatever. They are kind of expanded, because some of those more seasoned employees had their interpersonal skills, were different. Right, they understood certain things about how to read things, and so it was fascinating sometimes whether you brought them together on video or whether you brought them together in person and the conversations that would happen like well, how did you know this and how did you know that? And listening to those conversations. Because even in leadership, you know, my senior executive team, most of whom I hired while I was in the position, were either boomers or next gens right behind me, right, well, they lead very differently than the group that they're leading. Well, one thing that the pandemic, I think, taught all of us, regardless of generation, is that life is precious, and it's it's really that work should fulfill us and enhance our life, not dominate it.

Cheryl: 23:30

Yes, and that's where I think leaders are struggling with this, with the general generation issue. I don't necessarily think it's a generation issue. I do think that employees have redefined personal and professional success, but all of them, all of us, did that because the pandemic showed us that we had to right. But this transition between generations was happening all along, it just was accelerated. And so I think the biggest challenge is figuring out what's important to people.

Cheryl: 24:07

I was recently speaking with a friend and I said you know, I will tell you that I think the Gen Zers and millennials have figured out some things much quicker than my generation and the generation right behind us. When I get to my 40s and 50s was when I figured out yeah, I want to do purpose, I want to do impact. What am I doing? You know, that became more present in my brain. It's present in their brains right now. I mean, that's what they're looking at. That's part of the reason that some of the perks and things don't grab their attention, because they're looking for fulfillment and enhancement in their purpose and impact with their job.

Cassandra: 24:50

OK, that's interesting, so that those generations are more focused on their purpose and impact they have Now, because of your leadership style and what you have accomplished, what was your turnover like? You didn't really have big problems with turnover, because that's something they talk about too. They don't stay in the job long. They come there, they do what they have to do.

Cheryl: 25:16

Well, I mean. So when I took the position as the chief executive, our turnover was federal government. The turnover rate was about 13%, which is kind of standard in the federal government, but it was a little on the high side, and so you know, one of the things I wanted to do was change that, and I knew the environment was changing as well.

Cheryl: 25:34

And so what I saw with my leadership style and the successes that we started having as an organization in year one, was that my turnover went down right. So I went from about 13% down to I don't know six or 7%. And people will say, well, that was COVID, okay, yeah, it could have been the pandemic, it could have been that that could have contributed to it. But what I found, and what the surveys because we have in the federal government, we have surveys and all those things were that morale and trust with the employees increased and so they felt valued, they felt like they mattered to me and to the organization and so they were more inclined to stay. And what I thought was fascinating is we had I had more than probably had three or four that I could name off the top of my head, and there may be more than that who left right before the pandemic.

Cassandra: 26:32

Okay.

Cheryl: 26:34

Because they were like we don't, we don't like that over there, we want to come back here wow we, we feel, you know so, so I think you know they felt valued and they helped and so and you know that also went for our recruitment. It helped with recruitment. But there you know, I think in today's world there is a little bit more turnover, because if you're not offering development and support, the grass is greener somewhere else right.

Cheryl: 27:02

And the turnover is not always about money and in fact, most cases with these generations it's not. It's about impact and purpose.

Cassandra: 27:12

That's good. That's good. So let's go to your book a bit, because I think your book may have a lot to do with what you're talking about. Why did you write the book? Well, let me share the name of it again, so individuals are clear on the name Dare to relate, leading with a fierce heart.

Cheryl: 27:36

So it's got some people on top of an airplane, you know, in the business world it's, you know, flying the airplane while you're building it, type thing. It's got some hearts on there, it's got a star and a couple of places. So really, when I retired, I had several people who came to me actually right before I retired and said you know, what are you going to do in retirement? I'm like I don't know, and you know. So I haven't figured that out yet. Right, I know what I think I want to do, but I'm not sure. And they said, well, we think you should write a book. And I said, about what I said, you know, there's a million books out there on leadership, please, you know, and they're like no, but your journey and your voice is important and so you know. So I said, well, I'll think about it. And so I was.

Cheryl: 28:27

I was actually a guest on a couple of podcasts and, you know, in both, in both those podcasts, it was the listeners and the podcast purpose people that said to me you really need to write a book.

Cheryl: 28:38

And so, you know, I started listening, I really started listening to other podcasts, reading about what was going on, and it quickly became the book that I had to write because, just as we talked about the, the workplace, the landscape of the workplace is changing and the gap between leaders and employees is widening.

Cheryl: 28:58

And the gap between leaders and employees is widening and I was like, look, we have to figure out a way to make this better. Because you know the, the Gen Z's and the millennials and the soon you know the Gen Alphas, who are right behind the Gen Z's, there are future leaders. So we need to invest in them, we need to inspire them, we need to help them understand that. You know they can lead in their own way, shape and form, and and. So it really became clear to me that you know, I did it my way and and you know that's unique in the federal government, but it's unique anywhere. And you know, when 38% of our current employees don't want to take leadership jobs because they don't want to take on that, what they perceive is this really hard role and you have to fit into this box. That's not good, so that's why I wrote the book.

Cassandra: 29:49

Okay, well, that's interesting because I have spoken with several leaders recently. Who, were talking about building relationships, employees having a sense of belonging, feeling needed, they've been inspired, they see the impact, but there are a lot of leaders that are being burnt out. So what did you do and I'm not going to say you didn't have a time that you felt you were burned out, but what did you do to alleviate that? Or what was your your deciding point? To say, okay, I'm burning out, so I need to do this, this is what I need to do. So how does all of that relate to that book?

Cheryl: 30:37

So actually, you know, I did. You know, especially when you're new in a chief executive role, you want to take on everything, you want to do everything. You think you have to be there all the time and do things. And I did, I did those things Right and and it was a lot, and I had a lot going on in my personal life at the time. One son graduated from high school, another one graduated from college, my mom was diagnosed with late stage Alzheimer's. It was. There was a lot, yeah, and you know, and sometimes I found myself hiding in my work and I knew that's what I was doing, I knew I shouldn't be doing that, and so you know, I had started really putting boundaries in, kind of taking some time. One of the things I learned with business trips is my viewpoint as a chief executive is oh, just get there and get back as quickly as you can because you have stuff going on.

Cheryl: 31:33

Well, I was like, wait a minute. You know I can't fly all the way out to the West Coast from the East Coast and take a red eye back Exactly who I am. The next morning it's just not going to work, so I started building in some buffers there, here and there, and actually what it did for me is it allowed me to engage more with our customers and stakeholders, which was a bonus right.

Cheryl: 31:54

Yes, it's like feedback that I could bring back and but that also helped me in that I was doing. I got the feedback that you know your leadership is changing things. So that was. You know it was a two, two pronged effect. But the other thing is I took I took some downtime here and there and leaders every leader is different on how you use your downtime, how you switch off. Yes, for me, I have ADHD, you can probably tell. But I have ADHD and I didn't discover this until much later in life when one of my sons was diagnosed, and so what I have to do is my downtime is shorter sometimes than other people's, and so the perception is that I wasn't taking enough, or I wasn't taking enough downtime, but I was for me, right but,

Cheryl: 32:52

talking about that. So one of the things I love to do is I love to take walks. I like to walk the dog, I like to walk out in nature, and so I would do that. I would like have a Friday afternoon or a Saturday and just go. You know, occasionally I like to play golf. I didn't do, didn't get to do a lot of that my role but occasionally my husband and I would sneak out for nine holes on a Friday. Let's take that time and do that right, because it's that resilience that you're building up and you have to have something like that that you do, and so you know.

Cheryl: 33:29

And then we went into pandemic and so what happened? I was available all the time on my computer and so people were like scheduling meetings back to back to back. Look, we got to slow this roll right here, right? Okay, so you know again. I had to because I was, I could feel it Right, and it was actually my husband and my son had come home. My youngest was home from college and he's like mom, how can you be like in back-to-back meetings for six hours? What are you doing? Right?

Cheryl: 34:01

she came out of the office and you're like you know days yeah yeah, I said you're right and so I really started started um buffering that. I started, you know, taking time. I I really I wasn't. I wasn't leaning on my team like I should have been, and part of that was because we were just building the new leadership team and I had to learn to trust them and build them and rely on them, because that's the other way you can build your resilience when you trust your team and you know they've got it.

Cassandra: 34:31

You're okay, Exactly so that's the other side of it. Yeah, that's good, that's good, that's good advice, because you know, I used to say remember, guys, we're human beings, not human machines. That's right. We just keep going and going and going. Yeah, that's so, that's so true. One of the things you say is no matter what you have a purpose. One of the things you say is no matter what, you have a purpose. And because of the relationships that you've had with your employees, do you ever talk about their purpose or what their purpose is? Do they ever come along with what that is?

Cheryl: 35:13

And if, so how did you handle that? You know it was really interesting because you know I had come up in the organization, right? So I had been in the organization about 20 years, a little over 20 years when, when I was nominated and selected to be the chair, the chairman, and, and so I walked out the door as an executive, a senior executive. I walked back in the door an hour later as the chairman. Well, all of a sudden people looked at me like I'd grown two heads right.

Cheryl: 35:42

They weren't sure how they could talk to me and they weren't sure how they approached me. Well, one of the things that I had done throughout my career as a leader was I had really hired and recruited a lot of military spouses to work in our organization, because they were veterans, but particularly military spouses, because we know, we understand, we see, we see that world, and so some of them were used to coming to me for advice and asking me questions, and all of a sudden it was like we can't do that because she's too busy, and I'm like, well, nellie, let's stop here, let's think about that.

Cheryl: 36:22

And so so one of the things I did was I, I basically set up um office hours and I, when I was in, when we were in person, I walked around right and sometimes people would stop me in the hall and just say, hey, can we chat a minute? I'd like to get your perspective on this. Or you know, um, and, and. Occasionally it would be like I'm not sure you know if I'm supposed to stay in this job. I have this opportunity over here, and you know, and, and, and people would say I can't believe you told the boss that, right, they're like, but she understands and so, and. So you know, I tried to continue that as much as I could. I mean, I couldn't, you know, but I couldn't do it for everybody all the time but.

Cheryl: 37:12

I said, look, I will carve out time for you if you need something, and and so eventually people would come. In fact, I still have people who reach out to me, um, from the organization and from a couple other organizations, because I kind of encourage people to kind of spread their wings sometimes and explore other opportunities that you know like. And they'll call and they'll say, hey, do you have a few minutes that I can bounce something off of you?

Cassandra: 37:36

Wow Makes sense, right, that's that has a lot to do with your leadership style. You will open and you will what I say approachable. There's some leaders that aren't approachable, you know, and they're not quite sure why, and the visibility that you provide, I think, is also important, so they felt that they could come close to you, your journey and and this podcast is actually about, you know moving forward individuals that know that there's something that they want to do different. They have these dreams, but they it's kind of like they'll stay in those positions where they are and, uh, it's something about it that they don't want to move forward Is there anything?

Cassandra: 38:25

you could share with them probably more about perspective that would help them or propel them to pivot and start doing what it is that they want to do. I'm thinking if they had this thought and this dream and this is their goal. I think personally. It's not given to them for nothing. There's a reason why that's given to them. What words of advice could you provide them with that will help them get off the stool, so to speak, and move forward?

Cheryl: 38:59

Well, I think one of the things that happens to all of us is we get comfortable, right. This is easy. We kind of know how things work, we have the routine it's, we're in our comfort zone and you know, when you're in your comfort zone, it feels great, it's wonderful. Yes, but are you growing? Are you doing what you're meant to do? Are you, you know, are you thinking about that? And if there's something out there, I mean I'm kind of going through a little bit of that right now.

Cheryl: 39:25

I went, you know, I wrote the book and kind of paused a little bit and, you know, now I'm trying to launch a little bit speaking, speaking from the book, and launch the speaking career, because I really think it's where I need to be. Yes, but you know it's it's it requires me getting out of my comfort zone and talking to different people and doing presentations and, you know, doing some things virtually and writing some articles and doing all those things that you know people are like, oh yeah, but you did things like that. Well, I did some things like that in the role that I was in.

Cassandra: 40:02

Yes.

Cheryl: 40:02

But that wasn't me, myself and I.

Cassandra: 40:05

Yes.

Cheryl: 40:05

No, I'm me myself, and and I. So the question is what am I here for? What am I meant to be doing? And you know, people will say to me all the time well, I thought you retired and I'm like I did retire, yeah, from a full-time, 50 hour a week job, plus, right, and but I'm not like hiding out in my house, I, I'm going to go do stuff. I still want to make an impact, right, and so I think that's the question is okay, you know I could, I could sit on my lovely back porch with you know, the veranda style and, you know, enjoy life. But and occasionally I like to do that but sometimes I'm like, yeah, you know you need to go upstairs to your office and you need to write an article or you need to get on a podcast, or you need to go talk to someone you know.

Cheryl: 40:56

So get out of your comfort zone, Think about what you're doing to push yourself in a way that explores, kind of allows you to be. Still be in your comfort zone a little bit, but explore those other areas while you're doing that and see how that makes you feel. I mean, when I was writing the book, I met and interviewed a lot of people and one young man I spoke to. He said I was in this job as a financial planner and it was great, I made a lot of money, but that's what I wanted to do. And he said you know, after a while I just couldn't stay there, I had to go do. And you know, now he's a speaker and he's out doing and speaking about different things and engaging people, because that's what he wanted to do. Right, and he's like my parents think I'm crazy. Okay, you know, my youngest is a golf pro.

Cassandra: 41:56

Dogs are barking.

Cheryl: 41:58

My youngest is a golf pro. He went to college and said hey, I think I want to teach golf. I said, okay.

Cassandra: 42:14

Wow.

Cheryl: 42:15

You can make money at it. I mean, you know, that's you know. I think people need to do what they feel they need to do.

Cassandra: 42:22

Right.

Cheryl: 42:23

What makes them happy.

Cassandra: 42:25

Right, right.

Cheryl: 42:30

My oldest is an engineer. He, you know he likes to do engineering things. You know like he's a mechanical, but he also likes to play games on the computer. He's a gamer, he does, he does things to support his world.

Cassandra: 42:42

Right, okay, so it's like if you don't get out of your comfort zone, it's like you're in your way. I mean, that's kind of what this podcast is all about. My book is Is your Way, in your Way, you know, and something to think about. And also, Cheri, when I listen to you, you didn't do everything, you didn't do it alone, and I always tell my listeners, you know reach out to your circle of influence or individuals that you're comfortable with, or someone who knows more than you to give you some advice.

Cassandra: 43:18

You know, because one of the things you talk about is invisible. Being invisible is not an option. Yeah, that's right. I definitely wanted to find that out from you and want my listeners to understand that they cannot do it alone. And it's okay and I think it gives you a reason for living. You know when you're doing what it is that you're called to do.

Cheryl: 43:49

Yeah, go ahead. If you let life happen and you just there's things blocking me, there's obstacles, I can't do that, I could never do that, I can't, you know, then you're letting, letting life and others choose your path, and you know, I, I believe that. You know, we, we are here for a purpose, we are here for an impact, and and we were given brains and opportunities to do things, and so life will try to make you invisible if you let it.

Cheryl: 44:22

And sometimes other people will too, especially if they're threatened by whatever you're doing, or they're not, or they're uncomfortable, right. And so I think in that situation, you have to understand that invisibility is not an option, that you need to be out there doing things, checking different ways, exploring different opportunities and seeing what works for you, what you enjoy doing. And I think, like I will say, in my generation, generally we all waited until we retired to do that.

Cassandra: 45:02

And.

Cheryl: 45:02

I've just given you a couple of examples of people from Gen Z and millennials. They're not waiting for retirement to do that.

Cassandra: 45:09

They're doing that Right.

Cheryl: 45:10

And so I think when you, when you're out there and you're doing things that you, you get it in, you're engaged and encouraged and then you do more so you're not invisible. But the other piece of that, the invisibility piece, is finding your tribe, finding your network, finding the people that you um, the support you, that advise you, that encourage you. That's extremely important and it can be you know, it can be a multitude of different people that's right, that's exactly right.

Cassandra: 45:45

Very high, um. Let me ask you this before we wrap up? Where do you get your inspiration from?

Cheryl: 45:57

you know, um, my inspiration for a long time and still to a certain extent, is, is and was my mom. Um, I lost her in in 2018, but, um, she overcame so much. She was, uh, the last of her, her um parents, children. Both of her parents had passed by the time she was 10, you know, she was passed around the family. She was basically an orphan. She was passed around to her siblings. She had a car, she carved her path and, uh, you know, she did rosie the riveter things at right field and then she went to college and met, met and married my father and then, you know, life got hard again with his death and she became a widow.

Cheryl: 46:40

She became a widow and the soul, you know, the sole breadwinner of the house. Yeah, and so there were a lot of challenges just watching her, because she was so inspirational, because she just would not accept that life could be difficult and she knew it was difficult but she wasn't accepting that. She wasn't supposed to go and do.

Cassandra: 47:06

And so she did.

Cheryl: 47:07

And so that was, she is and she was and is continues to be my inspiration. But you know, I find inspiration all around me. I mean, just yesterday I posted, you know, I live in Pinehurst, now North Carolina, and so we've got a little thing called the US Open golf tournament happening this week and you know I enjoy golf.

Cheryl: 47:32

I get to play occasionally and you know watching the golfers come in and you know the airports near our house. We got all these planes landing the excitement, you can feel the excitement. But then watching them during the practice rounds, practice and their persistence and they just keep going and they just, you know, and that to me is inspiring because they're practicing their craft, they're doing what they enjoy doing yeah and that is kind of you know, like, well, okay, that's, that was my monday inspirational message on on linkedin because I thought that's really what I need.

Cheryl: 48:09

I need to go back upstairs and work on my speech some more, figure out some ways to get my voice out there, because that's inspirational for me. But you know, I find inspiration in nature too. I mean, I think you can find inspiration all around you. It just depends on what your perspective is and what you're right, exactly, yeah.

Cassandra: 48:31

And just listening to you, you take action. You can think about I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that, but you have to act upon it.

Cheryl: 48:39

You do.

Cassandra: 48:40

Yeah, yeah. So when we opened up, you said you were about a seven, one to 10. So now you're at a point. You know exactly what it is that you want to do. What can you think gets you to that that solid eight, or almost to that nine?

Cheryl: 48:59

I think I think once I start getting engaged as a speaker a little bit, more there's going to. There's a couple of possibilities on the horizon, but but you know, I'm new at this, I'm learning and it's it's a new area for me. This is way outside my comfort zone.

Cassandra: 49:14

Right.

Cheryl: 49:15

And um you know, I spoke a lot in the previous role I had, but that was in the role right. This is me this is about what I want. So I think I think you know, getting those engagements, getting people who, who are telling me yes, you know, this makes sense, we want to hear this, this is good, and then me and figuring out how I do that, I think you know, I think that will kind of push me and that just takes time.

Cheryl: 49:41

It just takes time and networking and and letting people know that you're out there and you're available to speak at conferences and leadership trainings and different things.

Cassandra: 49:53

Exactly so. Listeners, you heard our conversation today. Y you notice that she's moving up the scale, but, however, she's doing what it is. She's identified what it is that she would like to do and she's moving towards that and she's taking steps. So I say that because I think about it what your goals are, your dreams are, and move in that direction and listen and replay this podcast and hear the things that sherry talked about and you can kind of align that in your organization, even if you want to be promoted, become a leader.

Cassandra: 50:37

How she became so effective as a leader and how employees left because they thought the grass was green on the other side and they came back. So look at that turnover rate. I mean it's incredible One percent, then it went to six. So it's something to say about her accomplishments and what I didn't share with you. She's a TEDx speaker, so she's done a really phenomenal job and based on which it is that she wanted, in spite of what happened in her childhood, based on what it is that she wanted, in spite of what happened in her childhood, she still has overcome that and still moving forward to do what I believe God has ordained her to do. Cheri, tell the listeners how they can get in touch with you.

Cheryl: 51:17

So you can get in touch with me a couple of different ways. You can always follow me on LinkedIn it's Cheri in parentheses, cheryl Mason. Cheri in parentheses, cheryl Mason. And then also on my website, which is wwwcatalyst. C-a-t-a-l-y-s-t. Leadership L-E-A-D-E-R-S-H-I-P.

Cassandra: 51:45

And it's MGMT. It's not management, spelled out, mgmtcom, okay. Okay. Well, Cheri, it Cheri , it was a pleasure. Thanks again, and my listeners, as I always say bye for now and remember to share this podcast and also know that this podcast will be on all platforms and it will go live on my platforms the first week in August or maybe before. So God bless you again, Cheri. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you, bye for now.